YOKE OF BONDAGE

you have been shown, by posthuman a few months ago, how the 613 connect back to the Torah.

you can say the Pharisees just made them up all you want, but that does not make it true.

No Dan, their goal is to teach "HOW" to do unto others and "HOW" to Love God. Through them we are to "Prove" what is that "perfect Will of God". through them we learn doctrine, we are corrected, and receive "instruction in Righteousness". That is why they are here.

We are free to eat of lots of trees Dan. There are just a few things we should not do. Does God tell us everything we "CAN" do? No Dan, because we are free to do many things. He instructs us against things we "CAN'T" do. The list is much shorter.

Only if you believe that Jesus didn't know what He was doing when He inspired the Law and Prophet's in the first place, can you believe a statement such as this. I find that the Law and Prophets spell out God's Perfect Salvation plan. I don't believe you will be placed in a position where you will have to break God's Law to keep it. And you have no Scriptural evidence to support such an assertion. The Word actually teach us the opposite. If you are God's then He has already provided an escape for any temptation to disobey Him (SIN). You just have to believe on Him to see it.

Jesus never broke a Law of God to help someone. He was accused of doing this by the Mainstream preachers that taught for doctrines the Commandments of Men, but I don't believe in them, I believe in Jesus who never disobeyed His Father.



You see, I don't believe I was ever entangled in the Instructions and Commandments of God before I came to His Light. You do it seems, and many claim this as well. But for me, the burden and yoke of bondage was the deception of believing a lie. Jesus said the truth shall set me free from this Yoke of Bondage satan had snared me in to do its will. Praise Him for this freedom.

The Jews also believed a lie about God. They claimed to be "Abrahams Children", they claimed God as their Father. But they didn't know Him. You and others imply that this was because they were "Following the Letter of the Law". But this teaching is not true. Those who believe this "Lie" are held in bondage. Trapped, snared by satan to do ITS will. Those who believe in their heart that it was obedience to God Commandments that caused the Jews to be rejected by the Christ are destined to teach against it in many ways.

Rom. 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

And as the serpent demonstrated, it doesn't care about the trees God said we are free to eat of, it is only concerned with convincing man to reject God's "Shall not's".

But had Eve just done the simple task, just obeyed this easy instruction and used the Armor of God and the "Perfect" escape He created for her in this temptation, she would have been like Abraham, Noah, Caleb, Zechariahs and many more. Had she just said: "Let me council with my husband" or "let me pray and ask God first". It was there for her as it is for all of us. And she would have been blessed for choosing to trust God and not her own vision or the religious sounding voices in the world, just as all other examples of Faith were blessed.

That is part of the lesson of the Law and Prophets. That is part of "HOW" to Love God, and "HOW" to share this Love with others.

I don't want to be free from God's Righteousness and create my own as the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time did and as they do now. I love God's Commandment. Jesus is living proof that His Lifestyle was "acceptable to God". I understand why we must "Submit to God". Why we must "Deny our self" and follow Him, not religious voices of the World.

God's instruction is a burden to you ? Who convinced you of that?

I'm saying if the Law says Don't commit incest, then goes on to say not with your sister, your mother, your cousin, your brothers wife, your brothers daughter, your daughter, your daughters daughter, and so on. Is it honest to say this is 10 different laws as you do, or is it honest to read this as one law.

Can you answer even one relevant question?

the answer to your question is yes, one law.

="Dan_473, post: 3656593, member: 190874"]What then? All have sinned, and once we have sinned it's over. We have sin on us and nothing we do can change that. But God has called us out of sin. (Egypt ) And we have another chance to honor Him with the reverence and respect that He deserves. Abraham was one such example. Caleb, Noah, Zechariahs are others.

These had sin on them, they were guilty, filthy. But God instructed them as He does to us all. "Pick up your cross (sinful flesh) deny our self (repent, change) and Follow Him. (Turn to God)

So has anyone but Jesus ever lived without sin in them? No. But there are few, on a narrow Path, that have trusted God enough to forget their "past" and to move forward in a "Renewed mind" towards the goal of a perfect man who walks in the "works" He created beforehand for us to walk in. So although no man is sin free, there are those who trust God enough to "change" and turn to Him with all their might. This is the Soul He will help as He promised in John 14.


So we are all in the place Abraham was when God called him out of sin. Did Abraham have a Law for the cleansing of sins? Did Abraham have Levites to atone for His sins? No Dan, He had God's Laws, just not the Law "ADDED" until 430 years later. So He was justified by something "apart" from the Law given by Moses for justification. He was justified by Faith.

Had Abraham done as Eve did, and rejected the instructions God had given him, would he still be considered "Faithful"? Of course not. He would not have been in the Faith Chapter and would not have been the father of all true Christians. He obeyed God BECAUSE He trusted God, or had Faith in God. I can't find any example where Faith and obedience are or even can be separated. I can't help it you refuse to accept the existence of atonement Laws given by Moses that Abraham didn't have. But I can promise you one thing, had their been a Levitical Priesthood in Abraham's time, He would have followed them.[/QUOTE]

="Dan_473, post: 3656593, member: 190874"]

This is because you don't recognize the Law and Prophets as Word's of the Christ. Jesus Himself, before becoming a man, promised to "change the Priesthood" in Jeremiah 31 and prophesied of it in other places as well.

Ps. 78:67 Moreover he refused the tabernacle of Joseph, and chose not the tribe of Ephraim:
68 But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved.

Ps. 60:7 Gilead is mine, and Manasseh is mine; Ephraim also is the strength of mine head; Judah is my lawgiver (But isn't Levi the Law giver)

Is. 65:
8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

Jer. 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Since you can't seem to accept this "change in the Priesthood", you bind it with God's other Commandments, even the ones Abraham had. And Abraham couldn't have had the Levitical Priesthood for the atonement of sins. Levi wasn't even born yet. This is a mistake.

So if a person correctly separates the Commands given to Israel, from the Commands given specifically to Levites, it become clear the difference between the "Law of Works" and the "Law of Faith". It becomes clear that Abraham obeyed and was justified "Apart" from the "works of the Law" for remission of sins. As it is written:

1 Sam. 15:
22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Thank you G9. So right there this number being bandied about has become 603 laws. And if a person continues to use the mind God gave us in search of the truth we will find that once you separate the Commands given specifically to the Levites from the Commands given to Israel this number is shorten substantially, and when you apply honesty as you did regarding the commands, this number is reduced even more, and if you continue, you will bring this number to 10, and if you continue to study God's Word even further in search of the truth you will find only two Laws. Love God, and Love others. The entire Law and Prophets are instructions on how to achieve these two Commands.

So there isn't 613 Laws of God, this whole teaching is a deception to guide you and I away from how to Love God, and how to love others.

This is why I post against the whole "God commanded His people to keep 613 laws, and killed anyone who didn't keep them all" doctrine. It is horribly offensive to me.

I appreciate that you "see" the point I am making.

I have never said that the 613 laws are from God. what I have said, well, not I , but historians have said is this- after Israel returned from exile, the leaders and priests reasoned that they were exiled because they broke the Law, then they would make triple sure they kept the Law.

so, in the years following Ezra and Nehemiah, which is not recorded in the Bible, they began to add laws on top of the Torah, the traditions of the elders, to ensure the Law was kept.

it is not about whither or not I agree with you, or you with me. neither of us were there. it is about being honest.

so, by the time Jesus came to earth, there was a mixture of Torah and the 613, all called the Law, that the Pharisees were insisting to be kept.

Jesus battles with them were over this. the Pharisees thought they were right with God because they said they kept them all.

It's your doctrine that is deceitful, dishonest and false. Your longwinded post full scripture twisting, rhetoric, trickery and deceit sounds similar to the longwinded posts full of the same nonsense that LGF used to post before he was banned.

Man is justified by faith and not by works of the law (Romans 3:22-28; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9). Period. You have not perfectly obeyed ALL the Commandments of God (Romans 3:23; 6:23) and will not be justified by law. It's you who remains in a YOKE OF BONDAGE.

I have no religious traditions that transgress the Commandments of God and all you have is that same ludicrous sales pitch, straw man arguments, pride, arrogance, trickery, deceit and your perverted gospel of salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works."

*You are not fooling me or any of my brothers and sisters in Christ on Christian Chat with your deception.*

mailmandan, post: 3656896, member: 193497"] Very typical response from religious man. How you must miss the old days when you could just stop your ears and shut opposing views up for good.

Yes, by the "Works of the Law" shall no flesh be justified. That is my belief. But what were the "works of the Law" Paul was speaking about? What Laws were created for Justification that the Jews were still pushing? We know it wasn't judgment, mercy or Faith. So what were "these works of the Law"? But you refuse to even discuss, and now you insult and ridicule me for asking.

I don't believe the Bible teaches anywhere that God's Instructions are a "Yoke of Bondage" as you preach. I believe deception, blindness, rebellion against God, these are the yoke of bondage I see. You can preach God's Word is a burden on all mankind if you like Dan, that is what Eve was convinced of. But for me, I'm sticking with the Faith of Abraham.

And what is Faith? Can a man have the Faith of Abraham without showing God the reverence and honor He deserves? These are relevant questions that every "Christian" should be able and should want to answer, and or at least discuss. Why won't you even discuss them?

Why did Zechariahs know Jesus when He came, but the Mainstream Preachers , including Saul, didn't? What was the difference between the two of them? Why did Jesus reveal Himself to Zechariahs, and not Saul?

Can I have Faith without Loving God? Is Grace possible absent obedience to the first and second greatest commandments?

These are valid questions which bring your religious traditions into question. Your hatred and anger towards those who ask these questions is telling.

We are told to "test the spirits", how can we comply without asking questions?

Let me get this right; "You have no religious traditions which transgress the Commandments of God".

OK Dan, LOL.

I posted the scriptures you or your preachers refer to and give an opinion based on what the rest of the Bible has to say about the subject. I ask questions because your religious traditions don't seem to line up with Scripture, as I point out. Jesus warns, as you so cleverly pointed out, that there will be false preachers which will use some of God's Words to deceive folks into rejecting God's Instructions. That is it's whole duty.

I am certainly not trying to convince people into disregarding God's instructions. But that is your full time message on CC. I can create images of God in the likeness of some long haired men's hair shampoo model, and place it in every church in the land, and that is fine. I can observe ancient religious High Days created by a Sun Worshipper and that's fine. I can ignore volumes of scripture from the Law and Prophet that were written for my admonition, and I am saved by the Blood of Jesus.

But if I talk about following the instructions given by God as Jesus instructed, I am trying to "earn" Salvation by my works. If I mention the Holiness, and Sanctity God placed on His Sabbath, I am a reprobate and a false teacher and have fallen from Grace.

If fact, if I question any of your religious traditions and doctrines like "The Pharisees were trying to earn Salvation by following God's Commandments" or "The old testament doesn't count anymore because we are in the New Covenant", both of which are not supported by scripture, I am slammed and ridiculed as a reprobate.

But I already know how you will respond Dan. There is an entire Book that gives examples of religious man and their reaction to God's Word. I just want the argument out there for others who are reading along. Others who have also witnessed the hypocrisy and disobedience in the teaching of "many" who call Him Lord, Lord.

If you have an example of where I twisted scriptures, then post it and discuss it with me. I want to be corrected if I'm in error. But if I'm just exposing your man made doctrines, then your anger and hatred is misplaced.

is it Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy, but to fulfill or Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy, but to show us how to fulfill?


For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but
how to
perform that which is good I find not.



19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.



20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.



21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.



22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:



23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.



24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?



25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I'm sorry, but I just have to laugh! You have been shown numerous times by multiple people how you twist the scriptures, but you just don't have eyes to see or ears to hear.

Reasoning through the scriptures with you is not difficult, it's impossible! You have your agenda to keep and you absolutely MUST have the last word in ANY argument and anything that anyone says to you after that is the beginning of a new argument.

You remind me a lot of LGF and you both would have made a great pair of shady lawyers.

God's instructions are not a yoke of bondage, but misguided teachers of the law/legalists turn them into a yoke of bondage by perverting the gospel and teaching salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works." You can re-define terms in the Bible and twist the scriptures all you want in order to try and make the Bible "conform" to your errant theology, but once again, you are not fooling me or any of my brothers and sisters in Christ on Christian Chat with your deception.

About him we have many words to say, and hard to interpret, seeing you have become dull of hearing. 12 For when by reason of the time you ought to be teachers, you again need to have someone teach you the rudiments of the first principles of the oracles of God. You have come to need milk, and not solid food. 13 For everyone who lives on milk is not experienced in the word of righteousness, for he is a baby. 14 But solid food is for those who are full grown, who by reason of use have
their senses
exercised to discern good and evil. Therefore leaving the doctrine of the first principles of Christ, let us press on to perfection—not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, of faith toward God, 2 of the teaching of washings, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of everlasting judgment.

All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.



13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.



14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.



15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.



16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.



17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.



18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.



19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?



20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Have you not read what David did, when he and his companions were hungry; 4 how he entered into the house of God, and they ate the show bread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for those who were with him, but only for the priests? 5Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath day the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are blameless?

"don’t be entangled
again"
please don't modify my quotes, embolding words that I did not. if you wish to make something bold, please do it in the words attributed to you.
the Jewish leaders of Jesus day we're not truly Abraham's children because they were seeking to kill Jesus, which is something Abraham didn't do.
the law consists of both shalls and shall nots.

Jesus was born under the law.


But I say that so long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a slave, though he is lord of all; 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the day appointed by the father. 3 So we also, when we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental principles of the world. 4But when the fullness of the time came, God sent out his Son, born to a woman, born under the law, 5 that he might redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of children.


we are not under the law.


For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, that you may not do the things that you desire. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious, which are: sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, 21 envyings, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, and envying one another.