1 Cor 13:10 - What is perfection?
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LOL! I generally hear two different interpretations concerning the meaning of the phrase, “that which is perfect is come” in 1 Corinthians 13:10:
1. It refers to when Jesus returns to earth. 2. It refers to the completed Bible. Those who strongly oppose the gift of tongues operating today usually gravitate towards the latter interpretation.
1. It refers to when Jesus returns to earth. 2. It refers to the completed Bible. Those who strongly oppose the gift of tongues operating today usually gravitate towards the latter interpretation.
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Hey! Everybody... PTL!
Here's what I believe:
1 Cor 13:10 "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." The reason: "that which is perfect," is not talking about the NT scriptures, but rather about Jesus; is because: 1 Cor 13:12 "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: for now we know in part, but then shall I know even as also I am known." So its Jesus that we'll see face to face and not the NT scriptures. And when we do see Jesus, we'll no longer have to study to show ourselves approved, for then we'll know as we ourselves are known. To meet the criteria of: "knowing even as also we are known," the receiving of the NT scriptures would have had to put an end to all doctrinal differences from that time onward by the faithful; because our knowing in part will have been done away when the NT arrived. When Jesus comes we'll be in our resurrection bodies, seeing him face to face, as he is for we shall be like him. And once we're in possession of those bodies, we'll be finished with: perfecting the saints; with the work of the ministry, al least, in this age; with edifying the body of Christ: because after almost 2,000 yrs, we will, as a church, have finally attained to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. Eph 4:11-13 "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastor teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." And then the gifts will end: 1 Cor 13:8,9 "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part and we prophecy in part." (this knowledge in vs 8 is probably referring to the gift, word of knowledge, by context)
Also, we see in:
Jn 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth upon me; the works that I do, he shall do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go to my Father." Jesus is still with our holy Father, so we're expected to do Jesus' works and even greater than his works. How do we do that without the gifts of the Spirit? Do we heal those in need like Jesus did without a gift of healing. Jesus made some major prophecies, do we prophecy without the gift to do Jesus' works? Can we work miracles like Jesus did without that gift? How do we war against the unclean spirits like Jesus did, if there is no one to discern the spirits? Each of the gifts of the Spirit operate by faith and if you don't believe; where is the faith to stir up the gift that is in every person who is born of the Spirit, at least, until that which is perfect is come? What would it be like to have, out of your bellies shall flow rivers of living water to those in need around you.
Maranatha!
Here's what I believe:
1 Cor 13:10 "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." The reason: "that which is perfect," is not talking about the NT scriptures, but rather about Jesus; is because: 1 Cor 13:12 "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: for now we know in part, but then shall I know even as also I am known." So its Jesus that we'll see face to face and not the NT scriptures. And when we do see Jesus, we'll no longer have to study to show ourselves approved, for then we'll know as we ourselves are known. To meet the criteria of: "knowing even as also we are known," the receiving of the NT scriptures would have had to put an end to all doctrinal differences from that time onward by the faithful; because our knowing in part will have been done away when the NT arrived. When Jesus comes we'll be in our resurrection bodies, seeing him face to face, as he is for we shall be like him. And once we're in possession of those bodies, we'll be finished with: perfecting the saints; with the work of the ministry, al least, in this age; with edifying the body of Christ: because after almost 2,000 yrs, we will, as a church, have finally attained to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. Eph 4:11-13 "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastor teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." And then the gifts will end: 1 Cor 13:8,9 "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part and we prophecy in part." (this knowledge in vs 8 is probably referring to the gift, word of knowledge, by context)
Also, we see in:
Jn 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth upon me; the works that I do, he shall do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go to my Father." Jesus is still with our holy Father, so we're expected to do Jesus' works and even greater than his works. How do we do that without the gifts of the Spirit? Do we heal those in need like Jesus did without a gift of healing. Jesus made some major prophecies, do we prophecy without the gift to do Jesus' works? Can we work miracles like Jesus did without that gift? How do we war against the unclean spirits like Jesus did, if there is no one to discern the spirits? Each of the gifts of the Spirit operate by faith and if you don't believe; where is the faith to stir up the gift that is in every person who is born of the Spirit, at least, until that which is perfect is come? What would it be like to have, out of your bellies shall flow rivers of living water to those in need around you.
Maranatha!
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here's the passage with a little more context
the word translated 'perfect' in verse 10 could also be taken in English to mean 'complete' -- NIV i quoted above chose to use the latter. words often aren't direct 1:1 meanings with other words across languages.
the major subject of this whole chapter is love, that love is the most excellent way. it's not really a chapter about tongues and prophesy and other signs, and there's really absolutely nothing in the context about 'scripture' as a body of writing either finished/unfinished etc. prophecy and tongues etc. here is being used as examples of wonderful things that still don't measure up to the excellency and lasting of love. it's inferred from what's said that it is a fact that tongues and prophesy eventually cease, but he's not writing about cessation of gifts. he's writing about love.
as i understand it ((by which i mean, what i understand by reading it)), 'when completeness comes what is in part disappears' is simply a true statement, in the abstract, and that it applies here - because he is saying that love never fails though all else passes away. love isn't 'in part' -- love is completeness ((i.e. 'perfect')). God is love, and He remains when all else fails. before eternity, after eternity, HE IS.
so i don't think at all that he's writing this with reference to 'canon of scripture' and i don't think he's preaching cessation of spiritual gifts. there may be some application of what's said here to either and both of those subjects, sure, but it's simply not what he's talking about.
i think in that particular sentence, he's just saying that this is true in general about things: there is a time and a purpose for all things, and the time for partial things is temporary. when the complete, perfect, finished thing appears, then the time for the incomplete, imperfect, unfinished things is over. you can take that 'truism' and apply it to 1,000 things -- but in the context of 1 Corinthians 13, it's primarily about love, about the love of God for us, which will not pass away, and which will be completely realized when Jesus Christ returns for His betrothed bride.
just my opinion; open to be shown differently
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
(1 Corinthians 13:8-12)
the word translated 'perfect' in verse 10 could also be taken in English to mean 'complete' -- NIV i quoted above chose to use the latter. words often aren't direct 1:1 meanings with other words across languages.
the major subject of this whole chapter is love, that love is the most excellent way. it's not really a chapter about tongues and prophesy and other signs, and there's really absolutely nothing in the context about 'scripture' as a body of writing either finished/unfinished etc. prophecy and tongues etc. here is being used as examples of wonderful things that still don't measure up to the excellency and lasting of love. it's inferred from what's said that it is a fact that tongues and prophesy eventually cease, but he's not writing about cessation of gifts. he's writing about love.
as i understand it ((by which i mean, what i understand by reading it)), 'when completeness comes what is in part disappears' is simply a true statement, in the abstract, and that it applies here - because he is saying that love never fails though all else passes away. love isn't 'in part' -- love is completeness ((i.e. 'perfect')). God is love, and He remains when all else fails. before eternity, after eternity, HE IS.
so i don't think at all that he's writing this with reference to 'canon of scripture' and i don't think he's preaching cessation of spiritual gifts. there may be some application of what's said here to either and both of those subjects, sure, but it's simply not what he's talking about.
i think in that particular sentence, he's just saying that this is true in general about things: there is a time and a purpose for all things, and the time for partial things is temporary. when the complete, perfect, finished thing appears, then the time for the incomplete, imperfect, unfinished things is over. you can take that 'truism' and apply it to 1,000 things -- but in the context of 1 Corinthians 13, it's primarily about love, about the love of God for us, which will not pass away, and which will be completely realized when Jesus Christ returns for His betrothed bride.
just my opinion; open to be shown differently
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When the saints are with Christ then perfection has come, for they are no longer part of the world, and the things they must do on earth as part of living for God are passed away, except love, for that will be the only thing that will keep going on forever.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
Prophesies are only needed on earth, and healings are only needed on earth, and knowledge is only needed on earth, and tongues is only needed on earth, for they are not needed in heaven for they are only things for the saints while on earth to help them in their walk with God, and to help the saint to be better, but when they are with Christ they do not apply anymore.
Out of faith, hope, and charity, which is love in action, charity is the greatest, because faith, and hope, are only needed on this earth, and are not needed in heaven for the saints are there so they do not need faith, and hope, concerning the afterlife, but charity will go on forever.
We cannot have perfection on earth, for there is prophesies still to come, and knowledge to be had for we grow in Christ, and tongues to be spoke, and healings to be done, so it is not perfection, but in heaven all that is passed away and not needed so it is perfection because there is no more growing, no more learning, no more people hurting needing a healing, no more future to be told, for the saints are at their final destination being with Christ that will go on forever in that same circumstance, and the growing, and the learning, and the advancement as a saint in Christ, does not occur anymore.
Out of all we done on earth only charity, love in action, will go on forever, and the only thing that the saints will be active in out of all they did on earth is charity.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
Prophesies are only needed on earth, and healings are only needed on earth, and knowledge is only needed on earth, and tongues is only needed on earth, for they are not needed in heaven for they are only things for the saints while on earth to help them in their walk with God, and to help the saint to be better, but when they are with Christ they do not apply anymore.
Out of faith, hope, and charity, which is love in action, charity is the greatest, because faith, and hope, are only needed on this earth, and are not needed in heaven for the saints are there so they do not need faith, and hope, concerning the afterlife, but charity will go on forever.
We cannot have perfection on earth, for there is prophesies still to come, and knowledge to be had for we grow in Christ, and tongues to be spoke, and healings to be done, so it is not perfection, but in heaven all that is passed away and not needed so it is perfection because there is no more growing, no more learning, no more people hurting needing a healing, no more future to be told, for the saints are at their final destination being with Christ that will go on forever in that same circumstance, and the growing, and the learning, and the advancement as a saint in Christ, does not occur anymore.
Out of all we done on earth only charity, love in action, will go on forever, and the only thing that the saints will be active in out of all they did on earth is charity.
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@dcontroversal
#hashbrowns
#hashbrowns
Perfection in the Bible means
James 3:2 New King James Version (NKJV)
2 For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body.
For example, if the Bible says you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, even your wife is becoming fat then you should never flirt to a woman who is far prettier and sexier than your fat wife.
James 3:2 New King James Version (NKJV)
2 For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body.
For example, if the Bible says you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, even your wife is becoming fat then you should never flirt to a woman who is far prettier and sexier than your fat wife.
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The only thing that Paul could have been looking for would have been the completion of the NT revelation. The seeing in part refers to the OT being a shadow of things to be fulfilled. The prophecy of the Redeemer which is now complete in Christ. Through the NT scriptures and with the indwelling Holy Spirit we see as we are to be seen by our Heavenly Father. We see ourselves as redeemed in Christ and clothed in His righteousness.
We cease from childish things and move on to more mature things in the service of the Lord.
The work of Christ on the cross was complete.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
We cease from childish things and move on to more mature things in the service of the Lord.
The work of Christ on the cross was complete.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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No it isn't. While you are a cessationist, and therefore believe 1 Cor 13:10 is referring to the "completion of the NT revelation", that is not the only thing Paul could have been looking for.
No it doesn't. To this day, even though we now have the "complete Bible", we still only see in part.
Yes, Christ has come the first time, and we have wonderful prophecies about the future. But we will not know everything, we will not "know even as we are known" until Christ returns.
No we don't. There are lots of things we still don't know. Anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves.
That is true.
That is true, but tongues will not fail, prophesy will not cease, and knowledge will not vanish away until Christ returns.
Yes. But there's still lots we don't know.
No it doesn't. To this day, even though we now have the "complete Bible", we still only see in part.
Yes, Christ has come the first time, and we have wonderful prophecies about the future. But we will not know everything, we will not "know even as we are known" until Christ returns.
No we don't. There are lots of things we still don't know. Anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves.
That is true.
That is true, but tongues will not fail, prophesy will not cease, and knowledge will not vanish away until Christ returns.
Yes. But there's still lots we don't know.
The context as well as the Greek word teleios translated as "perfect" mean that it is a reference to a complete Bible. Since the NT was written without punctuation or paragraphs, we should treat verses 11-13 as a separate (but related) topic.
First Paul says prophetically that we will have a complete Bible, therefore prophecies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge will not be necessary.
At the same time, because we are still mortals on earth, we do not see everything that God has prepared for us clearly. Thus "through a glass (mirror) darkly". But when we are glorified and face to face with Christ we will have a full knowledge of God's plans, purposes, and provisions for His saints. And this ties in with 1 Cor 2:9.
First Paul says prophetically that we will have a complete Bible, therefore prophecies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge will not be necessary.
At the same time, because we are still mortals on earth, we do not see everything that God has prepared for us clearly. Thus "through a glass (mirror) darkly". But when we are glorified and face to face with Christ we will have a full knowledge of God's plans, purposes, and provisions for His saints. And this ties in with 1 Cor 2:9.
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No it doesn't. But you're a cessationist, so that's what you must assert.
Yer killin' me, Nehemiah...
All you're doing is making assertions.
Prophecy, tongues, and receiving revelation have nothing to do with "completing the Bible". They are for us NOW. The manifestation of prophesy is for the edification of the body of Christ (1 Cor 14:4-5), not for "completing the Bible". Speaking in tongues is prayer in the spirit (1 Cor 14:14-15; Eph 6:18; Jude 20). It edifies the person speaking (1 Cor 14:4), and it is giving thanks well (1 Cor 14:17). Tongues is not for "completing the Bible". The manifestation of word of knowledge is God telling you things to help you, not for "completing the Bible".
The manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit will cease "when the completeness comes". It's talking about the end times, when Christ returns.
Agreed!
Yer killin' me, Nehemiah...
All you're doing is making assertions.
Prophecy, tongues, and receiving revelation have nothing to do with "completing the Bible". They are for us NOW. The manifestation of prophesy is for the edification of the body of Christ (1 Cor 14:4-5), not for "completing the Bible". Speaking in tongues is prayer in the spirit (1 Cor 14:14-15; Eph 6:18; Jude 20). It edifies the person speaking (1 Cor 14:4), and it is giving thanks well (1 Cor 14:17). Tongues is not for "completing the Bible". The manifestation of word of knowledge is God telling you things to help you, not for "completing the Bible".
The manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit will cease "when the completeness comes". It's talking about the end times, when Christ returns.
Agreed!
It's the only thing that fits the context.
There are many who do not know much but that is not Gods fault. The word is complete no additional revelation no additional prophecy.
Opinion but not biblically sound.
Opinion with no biblical basis. If you do not know it is because you do not ask or it is not necessary for you to know.
Eisegisis to support a behavior. Tongues were never given for the Gentiles. Prophecy was never given for the Gentiles. Knowledge was never given for the Gentiles. The Holy Spirit was given for all flesh but the three sign gifts were given for Israel. Joel 2
Again God has given but not many have received.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
There are many who do not know much but that is not Gods fault. The word is complete no additional revelation no additional prophecy.
Opinion but not biblically sound.
Opinion with no biblical basis. If you do not know it is because you do not ask or it is not necessary for you to know.
Eisegisis to support a behavior. Tongues were never given for the Gentiles. Prophecy was never given for the Gentiles. Knowledge was never given for the Gentiles. The Holy Spirit was given for all flesh but the three sign gifts were given for Israel. Joel 2
Again God has given but not many have received.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I think "perfection" is a poor rendition of the Greek teleios within the context and considering where the "variant" teleios comes from - telos.
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G5046 teleios tel'-i-os
from G5056;
complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness.
KJV: of full age, man, perfect.
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G5056 telos tel'-os
from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal);
properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination (literally, figuratively or indefinitely)
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We know that both Paul and Peter were looking for the end of the age in their lifetime:
1 Peter 4:7 The end ( telos ) of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.
1 Cor 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends ( telos ) of the ages have come.
Bearing in mind that the end was near when they both wrote, the logical and contextual conclusion is that Paul was saying that when the consummation/end comes the "partial" will be done way.
1 Cor 13:10 but when the perfect ( teleios ) comes, the partial will be done away.
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G5046 teleios tel'-i-os
from G5056;
complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness.
KJV: of full age, man, perfect.
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G5056 telos tel'-os
from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal);
properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination (literally, figuratively or indefinitely)
----------------------
We know that both Paul and Peter were looking for the end of the age in their lifetime:
1 Peter 4:7 The end ( telos ) of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.
1 Cor 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends ( telos ) of the ages have come.
Bearing in mind that the end was near when they both wrote, the logical and contextual conclusion is that Paul was saying that when the consummation/end comes the "partial" will be done way.
1 Cor 13:10 but when the perfect ( teleios ) comes, the partial will be done away.
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Certainly the point of the appearance of tongues is lost to you. Tongues were a sign, a miraculous sign, for the Jews to see that God was at work in the saving of Gentile souls. God is provoking the Jews to jealousy through grafting in of the Gentiles and the breaking off of Israel.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
For the cause of Christ
Roger
