Sabbath

the Sabbath does not redeem you

are you saying those who do not act like you do on your personal interpretations are not redeemed?

that seems to be a major problem with Sabbatarians...not every one...but several here have actually said if you do not follow the OT Sabbath you are not saved

is that what you are saying?

Jesus came to save those who were lost

He came to His own but they did not receive him

I have received Him as have others on this thread who object to the Sabbatarian monologue of how they work so hard for salvation while the rest of us are sinners etc

Jesus is our Sabbath rest...efforts to improve on that put one under condemnation because we cannot add to what Christ has done on our behalf

Jesus has completed the obligations for forgiveness of our sin because He never sinned

I don't know why certain minds cannot grasp that and thank Him for it

Yes, that is my point.

Do you acknowledge the "Deeds of the Law", given to Moses, that were specifically designated to be performed by Levites only, that were for the atonement, or cleansing or justification of sins?

Who was Paul speaking about in Romans 3?

Rom. 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

I'm asking if you acknowledge the existence of "Deeds or Works of the "Oracles of God" that was designated to address sins of the people?

I know the blood of goats didn't cleanse the sin. What I'm trying to understand is if you acknowledge that there were "deeds" or "Works" given by God to Moses specifically to address the sins or "Errors" of the people.

I'm not a fan of the new age NIV so I don't read it much. But where do you get this highlighted statement from Romans 3?

Can you please share this scripture?

I believe you are going to get a mixed answer with this one. There are usually two camps. The seventh day adventist/Mosaic law leaning camp, and the mainstream Christian view. Those who choose to follow the Sabbath often quote from Genesis, as God established the Sabbath Before there was the mosaic law, which may indicate that the Sabbath can be considered an unconditional covenant between God and mankind. The Mainstream Christian view comes mainly from colossians as it says that the Sabbath is only a shadow of the thing to come, which is Christ. It's interesting to note that Sabbath days, Sabbath months, and Sabbath years are all mentioned in the scriptures, yet many professing sabbath keepers only hold to the Saturday Sabbath, not following the Sabbath moon to moon according to its implementation by Israel. Also, Christ broke the Sabbath, as well as his apostles. Jesus is silent on it's importance in the new covenant. Neither do any of the apostles in the new testament emphasize it, so how did keeping the Sabbath become a theological linchpin among some followers of Christ? It's because of Exodus 31:16... "Israel must keep the sabbath through all their generations, it's a lasting covenant." This scripture, in my opinion, is expanded beyond God's intentions by placing the emphasis on "lasting covenant" A lasting covenant simply means one that endures for generations. It is not an EVERLASTING covenant, which is in the blood of Jesus (Hebrews 13:20) The Abrahamic covenant, (Genesis 17:9) the Rainbow covenant, (Genesis 9:16) and the New covenant are all EVERLASTING covenants. Circumcision, by the way, is also a "lasting covenant". Yet, based on the book of Galatians (5:6) we realize that circumcision was annulled through faith in Jesus Christ. And likewise the sabbath, another "lasting covenant" is also completed in our faith is Jesus, according to the scriptures.

I don't agree with your premise, at least for those who I know believe and strive to "walk even as He walked". In my view it isn't about SDA, or any religious franchise out there in the world today. It's about who Jesus is and what He taught.

Your preaching that Jesus broke His Fathers Commandment is in direct opposition to the entire Premise of His Life and goes against everything ever written about Him. Yes, the Mainstream Preachers of His time accused Him and His apostles of transgressing God's Commandment. But Jesus said they were liars and hypocrites so I don't believe in their words. I know through study that it was never against God's instructions to take a walk on the Sabbath and eat a strawberry or ear of corn, or to help a brother in need. This was one an example of what Jesus said about them.

Matt. 15:
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

I am aware of "many" religions which pick and choose what instructions of God are Worthy of their respect, and which ones are not.

This is the standard position of most all religions which claim the God of Abraham as their God through out Biblical history, as the examples the Word which became Flesh has written for out admonition show us.

In Christ's time the Mainstream Religion held steadfastly to some of God's instructions like "tithing" and sacrificial "works of the Law" for the remission of sins, but omitted other important parts of God's instructions.

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

In like manner, today Many reject His Sabbath and create their own. Many reject His Feasts and create their own "Feasts unto the Lord". Some instruct to eat only fish on a certain day of the week. Some create images of God after the likeness of some pretty men's hair shampoo model. Some require water sprinkled, some require emersion, the list goes on and on.

These are all "Transgressing God's Commandments by the Traditions of men", behavior that cost the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time, and those who followed them, their Salvation.

As for the Sabbath Jesus said it was "Lawful" to do "GOOD" on His Sabbath that He created for man. He certainly created lot's of examples for our admonition of the difference between those who respected god and His instructions, and those who called Him Lord, but didn't respect his Instructions. I guess it depends on how much we Trust Him.

Is. 58:
11 And the LORD (Word which became Flesh) shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.
12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.
13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; (Word which became Flesh)and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

It's not about this day or that. It's about honoring Him over the religious traditions of man.

This is an interesting reply. And thanks by the way for correcting me, it was viewed by the Pharisees that Jesus broke the Sabbath according to the traditions of men. (Jesus never sinned) However, in Matthew 12:1-8 Jesus actually claims to be superior to the law, similar to David when he and his men ate the bread of presentation in the tabernacle and Jehovah did not count it as sin. Jesus called himself Lord of the sabbath. Similarly, the sabbath keepers view those who don't keep the sabbath as sinners according to the same line of thinking as the Pharisees. I agree that it's about honoring God over the religious traditions of men, that's why Christians don't keep the sabbath and exercise faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus kept the Sabbath, because he was a Jew, and under rabbinical law he was required to do so. However, we are no longer under law, but under grace. As well, Isaiah 58 is specifically addressed to Jacob or physical Israel around the 6th century b.c.e., so I'm not sure what that has to do with the Sabbath today and for us?

Unbelief is disobedience in Hebrews 3 and 4
And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief (them that sinned; disobedience).

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence (out spokeness; boldness)stedfast unto the end;

(Heb 3: 5,6, 13-14, 17-19 KJV)

Now let's take a closer look at Hebrews 4 shall we.

1) Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us (the people of the writers day and us) of entering into his rest (the Gospel), any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel (His Rest) preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest (His Rest; the Gospel), as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest (the Gospel; the rest we have when Christ Jesus is our Life): although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. (the Gospel Rest has been available since Eden)

4) For HE (GOD) spake in a certain place (the giving of the Commandments on Mt. Sinia) of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

5,6) And in this place again, (GOD speaks of the Seventh Day) If they shall enter into my rest (the Gospel; the rest we have when Jesus is our life). Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein (the Gospel, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in (the Gospel) because of unbelief (obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will):

If we receive the Gospel Rest in Christ GOD is calling us to the Word that HE spoke of the Seventh Day on Mt Sinia. The Gospel. Our rest in HIM and HE in us enables us now to partake of the Seventh Day Sabbath's hallowedness.

7) Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day (Now), after so long a time; as it is said, To day (now) if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

Dabid's (beloved's) Word's though GOD where and are a call to repentance; GOD's Rest in Christ (the Gospel). For unto us was the Gospel (His Rest) preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

For (because of the word just shared in Psalm) if Jesus (Joshua leading them into Canaan) had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day (constant call to the Gospel because to whom it was first was preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it ).

The leading them into the promise land was a symbol of what they already had available to them. After the forty years of roaming and seeing GOD's loving and guiding hand they were still only willing to receive the physical blessings and not the Spiritual; HIS Rest in Christ.

9) There remaineth (present tense) therefore a Sabbath keeping to the people of God.
This verse brings us back to verse 4, “And in this place again, (GOD speaks of the Seventh Day) If they shall enter into my rest (the Gospel; the rest we have when Jesus is our life).”

10) For he that is entered into his Rest (the Gospel), he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

"As" is direct Comparison. There is no way around that. So it is A Ceasing from work like GOD did from HIS. It is the calling to those who entered in their rest (the Gospel rest in Jesus in GOD) to cease from their work AS GOD did. GOD ceased from HIS PHYSICAL work on the Seventh Day. GOD is already and forever Spirit. So HE did not enter enter into any Spiritual rest we do. He is our Spiritual rest. So we in harmony with Christ and the FATHER cease from our work on the Seventh Day as HE did. The Day HE hallowed (set apart) and blessed.

So what are our instructions in regards to keeping the Sabbath?

Because we have received the Gospel; the new heart and mind through Christ Jesus; old things having passed away, all things being new and of GOD. We Simply cease from our own works as GOD did from HIS. He simply rested from work; so we rest as HE did.



(Heb 4:1-10 KJV)

So one can willfully sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth?

In Hebrews 10:26, to "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE.

Now we don't walk along our daily life and accidently fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION.

The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

I understand the teaching. It's just that I can't get my mind around the preaching that Jesus observed useless Jewish Traditions of man, while at the same time condemning the Pharisees for "Transgressing God's Commandments by their own useless traditions of man.. In part because God, the creator of His Sabbath, was not a Jew. And also in Lev. 23 the Word which became Flesh said the Sabbath and the "Feasts" were HIS Feasts, not the Jews Feasts.

I'm not sure how following the Path Jesus followed, as He instructed me to do, isn't having Faith in Him. And as far as I can tell, it is a religious tradition of man to reject His Sabbath, not Honor God by "remembering to keep it Holy".

I understand the whole "God gave different laws to different DNA strands" preaching. But the New Testament, in my view, exposes this teaching as from man and not from God.

Rom. 2:
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but I don't think it is correct to say God only created the Sabbath for Jewish man. Jesus certainly didn't say that, and neither did Isaiah.

Is. 56:1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man (Not just a Jew)that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
3 Neither let the son of the stranger, (Not a Jew) that hath joined himself to the LORD,(Word which became Flesh) speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4 For thus saith the LORD (Jesus, the Word which became Flesh) unto the eunuchs (not Jews) that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: (Better than the Jews?) I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6 Also the sons of the stranger, (Non Jews) that join themselves to the LORD, (Jesus) to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

This is why I stay away from much of the teaching of religious man as they are not generally willing to even discuss these Holy Scriptures which seem to bring their religious doctrines into question.

Is. 56 was specifically addressed to NON-Jews, namely, "ALL PEOPLE".

I only say these things as a brother who believes "ALL THINGS" Written in the Law and Prophets, same as Paul. What if Jesus wasn't following useless Jewish traditions at all, but was walking in the "works" God had before ordained that we should walk in them??

Should I not at least attempt to have the conversation?

True that their are none good besides one who is. He is the Father who gave "good work" for us to live in. These are of the Spirit and meant as instruction and direction of the way we should go.
Imputed righteousness is not the righteousness of scripture. (by imputed I'm speaking of Calvinism).
Because we who walk by faith know it is not our example to live by but Messiah's example.

It is interesting verbiage actually. Being a verbal now in the genitive. It goes from simply being an action to a state of being. Willingly OF sin rather than of Christ and His sacrifice and resurrection.

Since the context of the passage is the New Covenant. This willfulness of sin is in relation to that. Having entered into the Holiest of all into the presence of GOD through the veil; the Body of Christ, the Temple of GOD; His flesh.

Thereby Being ONE with Christ that world might believe that GOD had sent Him. We have HIS Law; HIS word written in our hearts, minds and mouths. We are anew creation in Christ Jesus. Old things have passed away all things have become new and of GOD. We are of the Law; HIS Word; Which the Sabbath is of. Sin is no longer to be part of who we are through Christ through GOD.

For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience (who we are; our inner man of Sin) from dead works (Acts that cause death; Sin. For the wages of sin is death) to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament....
(Heb 9:13-15 KJV)


TO the point of your post though. We need to be careful in regards falling away; being deliberately of sin. Because we can reach a point to which it is impossible to renew us back to repentance seeing we crucify the Son of God afresh and put Him to open shame. Heb. 6:6

have you got anything else besides this old and one million times refuted nonsense?

is it willfully sinning to deliberately provoke by doing what you are doing here?

you raise lots of interesting points there, Studyman.

so a question about what style of discussion you would like to have. I could answer each point raised in your post one by one. this will lead to a really long post. then we'll trade long posts for a while, until the discussion eventually Peters out. neither one of us will likely be edified, and it seems to me mostly like a waste of time.

Or we could pick just a single question, a single issue and follow that through and if it leads to an additional point just follow that one point through and so on. that's what I would prefer to do, that style of discussion.

What do you say?

if the scripture says do not allow anyone to pass judgement over you with regard to diet, feast days, new moon festival or sabbath, and you ignore this and either allow yourself to be judged by these things, or ((worse?)) judge others over these things, are you sinning?

having the knowledge of the truth that these things are shadows of The Truth: are you sinning willfully?

I'm not sure how to answer that because we disagree on the meaning of the phrase "Deeds of the Law".

if I understand you, you see that phrase has referring to Commandments that God told Moses to tell the Levites regarding certain sacrifices relating to forgiving Sins.

I see the phrase as referring to actions that are prescribed by the law in general.

in Romans chapter 3 Paul is first talking about the Jews, then he talks about everyone Jews and gentiles.

there were Commandments given to the Levites regarding sacrifices for sin. When a levite would perform the physical action prescribed buy those Commandments he was doing a work or deed of the law.

I disagree that I quoted a new age translation.

The phrase "attending a holy assembly on the Sabbath" doesn't literally occur in Romans chapter 3. it is an example of an action performed because it is prescribed by a commandment, so it is a work or deed of the law.

Another example would be returning your neighbor's sheep if it has wandered away. that is something prescribed by the law. So doing it is a work or deed of the law.

A modern-day example might be picking up your neighbor's trash can if it has blown out into the street on trash day. that would basically be a work or deed of the law. It's a good thing to do. but God won't say that you are right with him because you do it.

I'm not sure if we're thinking the same thing when we say imputed righteousness.

Is this imputed righteousness?
“Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
I would say yes, that imputed is basically a synonym there for credited.

so is there credited righteousness? I would say yes.

Thank you and welcome back Karraster! We've got a new coat of paint on this place but it's the same old beloved cast of characters (and some new folks too).

Truly.

1 Corinthians 15:20-24
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.

24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power.

1 Corinthians 15:38-42
38 But God gives it a body as He has designed, and to each kind of seed He gives its own body.

39 Not all flesh is the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another, and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. But the splendor of the heavenly bodies is of one degree, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is of another. 41 The sun (1) has one degree of splendor, the moon (2) another, and the stars (3) another; and star (4) differs from star in splendor. 42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead:

Revelation 11:
1 Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the number of worshipers there. 2 But exclude the courtyard outside the temple. Do not measure it, because it has been given over to the gentiles, and they will trample the holy city for 42 months.

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Every believer is a living stone in the house of Yah (1 Peter 2:5), and He is building his house according to the exact pattern laid out for Moses, with every stone being prepared for its proper place. There's a courtyard, holy place and then a Most Holy place. This is why no temple is seen in New Jerusalem in Revelation when it descends from heaven, because Yah's temple is his people. This is also why no sun is needed in the holy city, because the glory of Yah will radiate from His throne.

But as Moses and Elijah shone with glory when speaking with Christ at the Mount of Transfiguration vision, so will one's splendor be determined by how close or how far they are from the throne of the Almighty; i.e. how close one walks with the lamb.


1) "The First-fruits" (barley) unto Yah and his Christ (Revelation 7:4 & 14:4)
first
7:4 - And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

14:4 - These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb wheresoever he goes. These were redeemed from among men, being the first-fruits unto God and to the Lamb.


2) "The Wheat" into Christ's barn (Matthew 13:30 & Revelation 14:14-16)
Matt 13:30 - Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

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Matthew 20:23
23“You will indeed drink My cup,” Jesus said. “But to sit at My right or left is not Mine to grant. These seats (on my throne) belong to those for whom My Father has prepared them

Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Daniel 12:3
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise master builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one must be careful how he builds. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as one being snatched from the fire.

Revelation 3:18
I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

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Agreed, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ; no grapes (of wrath) harvest for any believer. Amen. But of the believers, some will be rulers with Christ as a reward...and some will just barely make it into the kingdom, as though plucked from the fire.