Not By Works

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Dec 12, 2013
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you are a blatnat liar and accuser.
I am not the one that said....

Shamah said:
My Messiah freed me from bondage to sin not from His Instructions...

and then changed it to....

Is not being in bondage to sin mean I never sin? No it means sin does not rule over me, sin does not drive me and I do not live continually in a state of sin

If this is what YOU MEANT you should have said it this way

MY MESSIAH freed me from THE BONDAGE OF SIN, NOT from HIS instructions.

YOU meant EXACTLY what you said the first time......TO SIN NOT from HIS INSTRUCTIONS....
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
12,403
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Vile, you are vile.

only in the mystery of Iniquity would one say things like this, I say and believe the Sabbath is for doing the will of Yah.
if you wish to keep the Sabbath , that is fine. I have no issue with anyone keeping the Sabbath, any O.T. feast, anything along those lines.

but, when you, or anyone attempts to attach it to salvation by faith in Christ, that is wrong. because Sabbath keeping has nothing to do with it.

and, I heard a pastor say one time " if you want to find out if someone has an idol in their heart, notice the thing they get most upset about criticizing, and then how hard they defend the thing that is being criticized. if it is not Jesus , then it is an idol. Jesus is the only thing we should have that much zeal for". close quote.

so their is my reasoning behind what I said.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
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I am not the one that said....

Shamah said:
My Messiah freed me from bondage to sin not from His Instructions...

and then changed it to....

Is not being in bondage to sin mean I never sin? No it means sin does not rule over me, sin does not drive me and I do not live continually in a state of sin

If this is what YOU MEANT you should have said it this way

MY MESSIAH freed me from THE BONDAGE OF SIN, NOT from HIS instructions.

YOU meant EXACTLY what you said the first time......TO SIN NOT from HIS INSTRUCTIONS....
DC if I did forget a caomma where I said I did would it then mean what I said?

Also how many times have I told you yes I have and do sin but it does not rule over me?
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
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if you wish to keep the Sabbath , that is fine. I have no issue with anyone keeping the Sabbath, any O.T. feast, anything along those lines.

but, when you, or anyone attempts to attach it to salvation by faith in Christ, that is wrong. because Sabbath keeping has nothing to do with it.

and, I heard a pastor say one time " if you want to find out if someone has an idol in their heart, notice the thing they get most upset about criticizing, and then how hard they defend the thing that is being criticized. if it is not Jesus , then it is an idol. Jesus is the only thing we should have that much zeal for". close quote.

so their is my reasoning behind what I said.
Quote where I said those who dont keep the Sabbath are condemmed please. If you can not I ask that you take this statement back.

Also "pastors" say many things. and to test your theory you would have to say saomething about Jesus... ohh wait I have made threads about How it is the Messiah we must "hear and obey" He is our Shepherd...

John/Yahanan 10:16, "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd (4166 – poimén)."
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
12,403
6,740
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Quote where I said those who dont keep the Sabbath are condemmed please. If you can not I ask that you take this statement back.

Also "pastors" say many things. and to test your theory you would have to say saomething about Jesus... ohh wait I have made threads about How it is the Messiah we must "hear and obey" He is our Shepherd...

John/Yahanan 10:16, "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd (4166 – poimén)."

o.k., so keeping the Sabbath is not a required for salvation through faith in Christ. is that a true statement?
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
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o.k., so keeping the Sabbath is not a required for salvation through faith in Christ. is that a true statement?
There is not single Law that is said to be a requirement to enter the kingdom, Sabbath included. Sabbath, murder, stealing, etc. Salvation is given by YHWH not earned. This DOES not mean we should reject His Instructions/Commands/Laws. That has been my stance since day one on this site and if you can find a single post of mine that says different I will repent of it. The issue seems to be with me saying the Law is still valid, and it is, that makes people go "justified by works!" There is a big mountian between "legalisim" and "grace perversion" and Yahshua teaches it.

Consider this: If I post this I will be called names:

1 John/Yahanan 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”


1 Samuel 12:24, “Only fear יהוה, and you shall serve Him in truth with all your heart, for consider what marvels He has done for you.”

1 John 4:19, “We love Him because He first loved us.”

1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."

Exodus 20:6, “But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws.”

John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”

yet it is the Word...
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
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You mention His Word, prayer, meditation, worship time, praise time. These are all good and we should do them, but why do you not mention things that have to do with pure religion and the law Christ?

Or do you think His Word, prayer, meditation, worship time and praise time are what the bible refers to as pure religion, and the law of Christ?
You can have your so-called pure religion, and the law of Christ.

I have an inner, personal, LOVE, relationship with JESUS CHRIST my LORD. Your so-called pure religion and law of Christ, PALES in COMPARISON.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
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The Law of Moses? (old covenant) or the Law of Christ? (new covenant)
I have answered this so many times it;s crazy.. Here goes.

The Law of YHWH mediated by Yahshua the High Priest after the order of the Malak Zadiq.

Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

the process is explained here:

Hebrews 7:11-12, “Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed (#G3331), there is made of necessity a change (#G3346) also of the law.”

Notice it is the same word in English “change” but in the Greek they are 2 different words?

“For the priesthood being changed (#G3331), there is made of necessity a change (#G3346) also of the law.”

If we only look at the English it is easy to misunderstand what the writer of Hebrews is seeking to tell us. Lets take a deeper look at the difference between these words:

“For the priesthood being changed (#G3331)”

“changed” is word #G3331 μετάθεσις metathesis (me-ta'-the-sis) n., transposition, i.e. transferral (to heaven), disestablishment (of a law). [from G3346], KJV: change, removing, translation, Root(s): G3346

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
#G3331 μετάθεσις metathesis; 1) transfer: from one place to another 2) to change 2a) of things instituted or established

As in the priesthood on earth, the Levite priesthood has been abolished, and the Priesthood in the heavens, carried out by Yahshua is established. This “change” or “metathesis” is a removal of one that is replaced by another.

“there is made of necessity a change (#G3346) also of the law.”

Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
From G3346; transposition, that is, transferral (to heaven), disestablishment (of a law):—change, removing, translation.

“change” is word #G3346 μετατίθημι metatithemi (me-ta-tiy'-thee-miy) v., 1. to transfer., 2. (literally) to transport., 3. (by implication) to exchange., 4. (reflexively) to change sides. [from G3326 and G5087], KJV: carry over, change, remove, translate, turn, Root(s): G3326, G5087

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
#G3346 μετατίθημι metatithemi; 1) to transpose (two things, one of which is put in place of the other) 1a) to transfer 1b) to change 1c) to transfer one's self or suffer one's self to be transferred 1c1) to go or pass over 1c2) to fall away or desert from one person or thing to another

Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
#G3346 μετατίθημι metatithemi; From G3326 and G5087; to transfer, that is, (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert:—carry over, change, remove, translate, turn.

As in the Law has been transferred, not mediated by Levites but mediated by Yahshua the High Priest. This “change” or “metatithemi” is a transferral.

John/Yahanan 14:6, “Yahshua proclaimed to him: I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father, except through Me.”

Hebrews 7:24-25,"but He, because He remains forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore He is also able to save completely those who draw near to יהוה through Him, ever living to make intercession for them."
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,574
13,551
113
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I have answered this so many times it;s crazy.. Here goes.

The Law of YHWH mediated by Yahshua the High Priest after the order of the Malak Zadiq.

Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

the process is explained here:

Hebrews 7:11-12, “Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed (#G3331), there is made of necessity a change (#G3346) also of the law.”

Notice it is the same word in English “change” but in the Greek they are 2 different words?

“For the priesthood being changed (#G3331), there is made of necessity a change (#G3346) also of the law.”

If we only look at the English it is easy to misunderstand what the writer of Hebrews is seeking to tell us. Lets take a deeper look at the difference between these words:

“For the priesthood being changed (#G3331)”

“changed” is word #G3331 μετάθεσις metathesis (me-ta'-the-sis) n., transposition, i.e. transferral (to heaven), disestablishment (of a law). [from G3346], KJV: change, removing, translation, Root(s): G3346

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
#G3331 μετάθεσις metathesis; 1) transfer: from one place to another 2) to change 2a) of things instituted or established

As in the priesthood on earth, the Levite priesthood has been abolished, and the Priesthood in the heavens, carried out by Yahshua is established. This “change” or “metathesis” is a removal of one that is replaced by another.

“there is made of necessity a change (#G3346) also of the law.”

Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
From G3346; transposition, that is, transferral (to heaven), disestablishment (of a law):—change, removing, translation.

“change” is word #G3346 μετατίθημι metatithemi (me-ta-tiy'-thee-miy) v., 1. to transfer., 2. (literally) to transport., 3. (by implication) to exchange., 4. (reflexively) to change sides. [from G3326 and G5087], KJV: carry over, change, remove, translate, turn, Root(s): G3326, G5087

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
#G3346 μετατίθημι metatithemi; 1) to transpose (two things, one of which is put in place of the other) 1a) to transfer 1b) to change 1c) to transfer one's self or suffer one's self to be transferred 1c1) to go or pass over 1c2) to fall away or desert from one person or thing to another

Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
#G3346 μετατίθημι metatithemi; From G3326 and G5087; to transfer, that is, (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert:—carry over, change, remove, translate, turn.

As in the Law has been transferred, not mediated by Levites but mediated by Yahshua the High Priest. This “change” or “metatithemi” is a transferral.

John/Yahanan 14:6, “Yahshua proclaimed to him: I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father, except through Me.”

Hebrews 7:24-25,"but He, because He remains forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore He is also able to save completely those who draw near to יהוה through Him, ever living to make intercession for them."
A simple answer of "The Law of Moses" or "The Law of Christ" would have done just fine. It sounds to me like you view the new covenant as the old covenant re-packaged. :unsure:
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
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A simple answer of "The Law of Moses" or "The Law of Christ" would have done just fine. It sounds to me like you view the new covenant as the old covenant re-packaged. :unsure:
Well Hebrews 7 says what it says.

Also metathsis, metatithemi , chadash, kainos, neos... all have meanings...

PS 89, PS 105, etc... show Yah's word in this matter

and to simplfy terms,

I see it as The Covenant ratified in the Blood of Messiah, and that is what I say when im explaining it to someone who has never read the Scriptures.
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
54
48
Judgment and Covenant Renewal
4 “Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LordAlmighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2 But for you who revere my name,the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves. 3 Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashesunder the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the Lord Almighty.

4 “Remember the law of my servant Moses, THE DECREES AND LAWS I GAVE HIM AT HOREB FOR ALL ISRAEL.

5 “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lordcomes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
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If heaven and earth did not pass how is the Law abolished?

Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

Mat 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deut 6:5) This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”

Luke 16:16-17, "The Law and the Prophets were until John, since that time the Kingdom of YHWH is preached, and every man is pressed to enter it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

I think this bothers people because most believe the Law is "done away" people explain it differently or hav e different doctrines as to why, but the MEssiah spoke and heaven and earth did not YET pass... I think this is one of the major reasons people have so much anger towards me.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
12,403
6,740
113
There is not single Law that is said to be a requirement to enter the kingdom, Sabbath included. Sabbath, murder, stealing, etc. Salvation is given by YHWH not earned. This DOES not mean we should reject His Instructions/Commands/Laws. That has been my stance since day one on this site and if you can find a single post of mine that says different I will repent of it. The issue seems to be with me saying the Law is still valid, and it is, that makes people go "justified by works!" There is a big mountian between "legalisim" and "grace perversion" and Yahshua teaches it.

Consider this: If I post this I will be called names:

1 John/Yahanan 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”


1 Samuel 12:24, “Only fear יהוה, and you shall serve Him in truth with all your heart, for consider what marvels He has done for you.”

1 John 4:19, “We love Him because He first loved us.”

1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."

Exodus 20:6, “But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws.”

John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”

yet it is the Word...
and what commands does John, in the same letter, say to keep? believe on the name of the Son, and love one another. nothing about Sabbath.

and, as I have explained , the mount of transfiguration- God the Father says of the Son- hear Him. not only does this prove the truth of Trinity, it elevates and separates the words in red above all other Scripture, done by the Father Himself.

so, when Jesus said this, he was not speaking of the Torah, or He would have said so.
you and your little band just make all these assumptions, then try to push them as facts. we are not having it.

the truth of Trinity, easily provable, destroys the myth that one has to be a jew to be a Christian. they are not the same.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Judgment and Covenant Renewal
4 “Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LordAlmighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2 But for you who revere my name,the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves. 3 Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashesunder the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the Lord Almighty.

4 “Remember the law of my servant Moses, THE DECREES AND LAWS I GAVE HIM AT HOREB FOR ALL ISRAEL.

5 “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lordcomes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”
Yes YHWH's word is sure, and He did indeed give the Law, now the Levitical Priesthood os disbanded and Yahshua the HIgh Priest and Messiah mediates the Law of YHWH...

As shown in Heb 7...

Luke 16:16-17, "The Law and the Prophets were until John, since that time the Kingdom of YHWH is preached, and every man is pressed to enter it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
54
48
20 Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter.
21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
and clever in their own sight.
22 Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine
and champions at mixing drinks,
23 who acquit the guilty for a bribe,
but deny justice to the innocent.
24 Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw
and as dry grass sinks down in the flames,
so their roots will decay
and their flowers blow away like dust;
for they have rejected the law of the Lord Almighty
and spurned the word of the Holy One of Israel.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
and what commands does John, in the same letter, say to keep? believe on the name of the Son, and love one another. nothing about Sabbath.

and, as I have explained , the mount of transfiguration- God the Father says of the Son- hear Him. not only does this prove the truth of Trinity, it elevates and separates the words in red above all other Scripture, done by the Father Himself.

so, when Jesus said this, he was not speaking of the Torah, or He would have said so.
you and your little band just make all these assumptions, then try to push them as facts. we are not having it.

the truth of Trinity, easily provable, destroys the myth that one has to be a jew to be a Christian. they are not the same.
If you only isolate that single passage, yes, if you read the entire 1 John, this:

1 Yahanan /John 2:3-7, “And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands. The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Yah has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked. Beloved, I write no fresh command to you, but an old command which you have had from the beginning. The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning.”

1 John 2:24, "As for you, let that stay in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning stays in you, you also shall stay in the Son and in the Father."

I would point a beginniner in the word to this:

Mat 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deut 6:5) This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,574
13,551
113
58
Well Hebrews 7 says what it says.

Also metathsis, metatithemi , chadash, kainos, neos... all have meanings...

PS 89, PS 105, etc... show Yah's word in this matter

and to simplfy terms,

I see it as The Covenant ratified in the Blood of Messiah, and that is what I say when im explaining it to someone who has never read the Scriptures.
The old covenant has been made obsolete to "put legally into place" the new covenant (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:6-13) and the life of discipleship flows out of the new command, to love one another as He has loved us (John 13:34), which Paul refers to as the "law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2). Love fulfills the law (Romans 13:8-10). Out of this single command comes other commands, including references for the moral aspect of 9 of the 10 commandments, which are reiterated under the new covenant, yet the command to keep the Sabbath day is not binding on the Church under the New Covenant. It's as simple as that for me. ;)

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - James 5:12
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3

More exhaustive list:

Matthew 2:2; 2:8; 2:11; 4:9; 4:10; 14:33; 15:9; 28:9; 28:17, Mark 7:7, Luke 4:7; 4:8; 24:52, John 4:20,21,22,23,24; 9:38; 12:20, Acts 7:43; 8:27; 16:14; 17:23; 18:7; 18:13; 19:27; 24:11, Romans 1:25; 12:1, 1 Corinthians 14:25, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:18, Hebrews 1:6; 9:1; 9:6; 10:2; 11:21, Revelation 4:10; 5:14; 7:11; 9:20; 11:1; 11:16; 14:7; 15:4; 19:4; 19:10; 22:8; 22:9

Acts 15:20,29, Romans 1:25, 1 Corinthians 6:9; Chapter 8; 10:7,14; 12:2, 2 Corinthians 6:16, 1 Thessalonians 1:9, Galatians 5:20, Ephesians 5:5, Colossians 3:5, 1 Peter 4:3, 1 John 5:21, Revelation 2:14, 20; 9:20; 21:8; 22:15

Matthew 12:36, Ephesians 5:4, Romans 2:24, Revelation 16:9

Matthew 15:5, Matthew 19:19, Mark 7:10; 10:19, Luke 18:20, Ephesians 6:2

Matthew 5:21; 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20, Romans 1:29; 13:9, James 2:11

Matthew 5:27,28,32; 19:9,18, Mark 10:11,19, Luke 16:18; 18:20, Romans 13:9, James 2:11, 2 Peter 2:14

Matthew 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20, Romans 2:21; 13:9, Ephesians 4:28

Matthew 15:9; 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20

Mark 7:22, Luke 12:15, Romans 1:29; 7:7; 13:9, Ephesians 5:3, Colossians 3:5, Hebrews 13:5, 2 Peter 2:14