OSAS= House Built on Sand

Just because a Pastor is greedy doesn’t mean his Church is apostate.


Again please f you actually read my testimony you would know we not only give to our church but many other ministries as well.



JPT

So doing good is the evidence a person is in grace?

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8



JPT

That's great to hear brother, I got the wrong impression that you didn't agree with giving in a sacrificial way. Our pastor encourages us to give sacrificially, because it costs a lot of money to rent a building, pay the pastors salary, contribute money to other struggling Churches, send money to feed the starving in Africa, support missionaries and other Church ministries.

We all need to be encouraged to give generously, because none of us are generous by nature. We are still effected by our old selfish nature, so we need to be encouraged and reminded of how important giving is. Our pastor doesn't like talking about the subject but sadly he needs to bring it up now and then.

I don't think you understood me correctly, I would sum up my position by saying that true believers never deliberately sin. They fall into temptation, so it's not the same as planning to commit a sin.

I would further add that all true believers give sacrificially, because all true believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit who causes them to give sacrificially because the need for money is great. We have 20,000 children dying every day from malnutrition, while many professing Christians are spending their money on luxurious things.

If we don't help the poor, nobody else will. The secular world believes that man is the highest form of animal life, so the animal kingdom works on the system of the strongest thrives and the weak are their prey. The loins hunt down those animals who are the most vulnerable, such as the young or old or injured.

Our world works the same way, the rich and powerful live off the poor and they kill babies in the womb and they seek to kill the elderly and disabled. Christians are the only ones making a stand against this wicked world system, so the last thing we need is stingy Christians.

The talent is a metaphor for the word of God.

The point being, the person who doesn't put the knowledge of God that they have received to work in their lives through the new way of faith in Christ is showing themselves to not have the new way of faith in them. In other words, they're showing themselves to not have a saving relationship with Christ.

They will have nothing to show Christ when He returns but the knowledge they received. They won't have any works of righteousness produced from that knowledge. Their lack of righteous works will testify against them and show that they do not know Christ in salvation, so off to the lake of fire they will go.


This describes the church pretty well, I think:

‘Come now and hear what the message is which comes forth from the LORD.’ 31“They come to you as people come, and sit before you as My people and hear your words, but they do not do them, for they do the lustful desires expressed by their mouth, and their heart goes after their gain. 32“Behold, you are to them like a sensual song by one who has a beautiful voice and plays well on an instrument; for they hear your words but they do not practice them."-Ezekiel 33:30-32

In the church we have lots of people taking false comfort in the words of the Lord instead of in the words of the lord put to work producing fruit. They think what they know is going to save them on the day Christ returns and seem oblivious to the fact that Christ will be looking for fruit, not knowledge, when he returns as the evidence of whether you know him in salvation or not.

The presence of saving faith is measured by what you do, not by what you know.

^ How much fruit were the following people evidencing at the time Paul wrote this to them:

3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.


[see also v.15]

The parable of the talents is the context of what Jesus teaches at the end of the Olivet discourse.

Jesus plainly teaches His disciples exactly which of His servants will inherit the kingdom and which of His servants will not.


Those who have demonstrated His love to others, by reproducing the Seed, the Word of God, Jesus Christ, the message of the kingdom, by which they were born again, will be blessed. These were faithful.


These were fruitful.



For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:29-46








All those who are gathered before Him on the Day of Judgement are HIS SERVANTS.



HE IS THE SHEPHERD OF ALL THESE WHO ARE STANDING BEFORE HIS THRONE





JPT

Let's start with what the Bible says, not someone's doctrine - . . .

I do not need to "provide scripture to show that OSAS is not Biblical" - you need to provide Scripture to show that it is Biblical!! The Bible is the starting point - not someone's doctrine.

Not much, for as Paul says they were very immature in the Lord. The question is not 'are you always perfect and bearing fruit?', it's 'are you changed and changing, growing up into the fruitfulness of the Lord?' It's about progress, not perfection:


"make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

10Therefore, my brothers and sisters,a make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."-2 Peter 1:5-11

The saved person is growing up into his salvation and will be prepared to meet Jesus with a life of ever-increasing righteous living as evidence of his salvation. Meanwhile, the unsaved person (or formerly saved person) languishes in his unrighteousness (and even gets worse) and will be condemned as the unbeliever/ex-believer he is when Jesus comes back, his lack of righteous work testifying to the fact he is not saved.

Do you really mean and believe that "true believers never deliberately sin"?

If so, then I ask you: Have you ever deliberately sinned since you were born again? And if you have, then you could not be born again (and thus you are not part of the elect - according to your beliefs).

I have deliberately sinned I was born again! I am just being honest! In other words, I have sinned when I knew that what I was doing was wrong! But I believe the blood of Christ provides forgiveness for all sins of those who are trusting in His Son.

I think such people are a blessing.
It proves the words are true. Christ said, no one comes to the Father unless the Father leads them. No one comes to God except through the Son of God.

Those people you described were never called. They are the living testament of that other parable. We shall be known by our fruits.
Those that behave as you describe are known by us and God to be fake. Unfortunately they give that impression to the world that Christians behave like that.
And yet when actual saints of God show up the differences between us and them is obvious. And that then is a teaching to those who see us in itself.

Fake Christians don't fool God. Or real Christians.

Or, maybe it is because they don't feel worthy. Given they've known themselves and all the evil they've done. Maybe because they can't forgive themselves they think no one else could. Not even God.

Well put, I would go even further and say that "Fruit" can be understood as the amount of money we gave to the Church. The Church needs money more than anything else, because it can't do the work of God without money.

Christ will return and His reward is with Him, He will reward everyone according to their works. The best work a Christian can do is give money to the Church, because the Church can bless many of the worlds poor and hungry with the money that you give. The poor and hungry don't need a preacher or a Bible, they need food, shelter and medicine.

It's no use sharing the Gospel with a hungry person, they are not interested in the Gospel. They are only interested in food and water, then after they are feed you can share the Gospel with them. So money is by far the most important thing a Christian can offer, so the more we contribute the more fruitful we are.

There's no shortage of missionaries, people are tripping over each other to go on missions but we have a desperate shortage of Christians who are willing to give generously. There are just to many stingy Christians around, and the generous ones are having to carry the burden.

^ Well then, Peter was probably a total fake [read: non-Christian] when he said the following:

"6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk."



...since silver and gold "is the most important thing"...

I can't believe some who claim to be Christians here, don't even know the basic fundamental ABC's of scripture, it's very sad and it shows the depths of their depravity.

• John 6:39, "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day."

John 6:37 “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”

John 10:28 “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

John 11:25–26 “Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”

Romans 8:31–33 “What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.”

Romans 8:35–39 “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

1 Peter 1:5 “Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

I appreciate what you're saying here, but it's not always practical to stop and and look for an escape after your eyes just beheld a woman who is wearing very little and exposing a lot of flesh.

You're walking through the mall and she just appears in your line of sight and your eyes quickly behold her and by the time you evaluate the situation, the sin has been committed.
Or someone cuts you off in traffic and you blast your horn and yell obscenities at them, then you run and shut the gate after the horse has already bolted!

So which one of those Scriptures do you think says that once a person is saved they are always saved? Those are promises to the one who is believing in Jesus Christ - they are not promises to the person who is not believing in Christ.

I thought we were discussing OSAS and not the reprobate, you denied that OSAS was a Biblical doctrine and I proved that it was and now your saying it doesn't apply to the reprobate. Nobody ever said the reprobate were saved in the first place so how can they lose their salvation