Not By Works

I meet as often as I and others are able and I beleive in group learning, growth, edification, understanding, etc. Where everyone is invited to speak up give views, questions, answers, etc.

I know about the word "church" it comes from the romans godess circe who turns men into pigs and devours them... kind of fitting for some of the places I have seen, Yeah the real assembly is the ecclesia/kahal, this is the asssembly of Yah, so I agree with the wording, even tho seeming minor has impact on perception. The catholic church actually persecuted that guy who only used "church" when talking about pagan assemblies and used ecclesia to speak of Yah's assembly, the body of Messiah... Finally I dont see a new and old assembly, I see ONE flock, and those from Adam, to Yahshua and from Yahshua to the last day saints are all going to the same place ans will sing the same song of Moses and song of the Lamb in the Kingdom...

HE said there are Two Folds and they will become ONE flock, which I think the coming together refers to the Rapture, John 10:16.
The separation line, is the Cross, not Jews and Gentiles as most would think.

Old Testament Assembly HE has Built, the Flock that Believed GOD would send a Messiah.
New Testament Assembly HE has Built, the Flock that Believed GOD did send a Messiah.

They are the SAME FAITH. That is the FAITH of Abraham.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

So back on Topic as I promised. Do you Believe that LOVE motivates that LOVING OBEDIENCE in a Born Again Believer, and is not part of Salvation, which happens when you first Believe as a Free Gift from GOD? I firmly Believe that Obedience is PART of LOVE, in Particular GOD's LOVE that He poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, Rom. 5:5.

Yeah I may word it different but it seems we aree on this, those other sheep are those that are not properly following Yah, no matter if they are Gentiles or Hebrews who dont know/accept Yahshua. As you said those before He came were looking for the Messiah to me those who accepted Him are already in the flock just as those who followed Yah and died before Yahshua came...

Agreed.

Yeah so I have stated that over and over at this site, this particular post was to you, you even replied to it at 3:01 today. You said "I say you have to keep the Law before being saved or to be saved"

No salvation is from YHWH, and all have sinned sin worthy of death, all are in need of His mercy. The very meaning of mercy is one that implies it cant be earned or it would not be mercy. However this does not mean one can say forgive me then do evil things living an evil life rejecting His path and ways and "be saved" but not being evil is not "earning it" If there is any problem with this I want to repeat, one that claims Jesus but literally lives satans path is by every Scriptural measure, doomed. And yes those who have true faith will not do this. If one has "faith" they will get hit if the stand in the middle of the freeway at night they will not do it... A life seeking Him and His ways are a reflection of our faith and of His working in us.

Titus 3:5 He saved us not by works of righteousness which we had done, but according to His
mercy, by the washing of regeneration, and by the renewing of the Holy Ghost,

THE RIHTEOUSNEßS OF THE JEWS WAS THROUGH THE LAW.

Deuteronomy 6:24-25 The Lord commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the Lord
our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive, as is the case today. And if we are
careful to obey all this law before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us, THAT WILL BE
OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRISTIANS (NEW CREATION/MAN) IS THROUGH FAITH.

Romans 9:30-32 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness,
have obtained it, A RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT IS BY FAITH; but ISRAEL, who pursued a law of
righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it NOT BY FAITH but as if it
were by works. THEY stumbled over the “stumbling stone.”

“NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAD DONE" REFERS TO THE
RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE JEWS WHICH WAS THROUGH THE LAW. (titus 3:5, eph 2:8-9)

PAUL’S QUESTION IS:
Romans 3:31 Do we, then, NULLIFY the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

HE ALSO SAID,
Romans 3:3-4 What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith NULLIFY God’s
faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may
be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

GOD PUTS AND WRITES THE LAW IN OUR HEARTS AND MINDS.

Hebrews 8:10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares
the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and
they will be my people.

Hebrews 10:16 “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will
put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.”

...NOT JUST TO THE JEWS WHO WERE CIRCUMCISED IN THE FLESH BUT ALSO TO
THOSE WHO WERE CIRCUMCISED IN THE HEART.

Romans 2:28-29 A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely
outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is
CIRCUMCISION OF THE HEART, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is
not from men, but from God.

AND CHRISTIANS ARE ABLE TO FULFILL AND UPHOLD THE LAW IN THEIR HEARTS AND
MINDS BECAUSE OF THE LOVE THAT WAS POURED INTO THEIR HEARTS.

Romans 5:5 And hope does not disappoint us, because GOD HAS POURED OUT HIS LOVE
INTO OUR HEARTS by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

AND THEREFORE, “LOVE IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW.”(romans 13:10)

1 John 3:16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we
ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.

1 John 5:2-3 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying
out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not
burdensome,

2 John 1:6 AND THIS IS LOVE; THAT WE WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. As
you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you WALK IN LOVE.

Romans 10:9-10 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your HEART that you
BELIEVE and are JUSTIFIED, and it is with your MOUTH that you CONFESS and are SAVED.

1 John 3:18 Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but WITH ACTIONS AND IN
TRUTH.

Romans 8:4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be FULLY MET IN US,
who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

John 14:15 “IF YOU LOVE ME, YOU WILL OBEY WHAT I COMMAND.”

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD also.

17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord
Jesus Christ; 18how that they told you THERE SHOULD BE MOCKERS IN THE LAST TIME,
who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19These be they who separate themselves,
sensual, HAVING NOT THE SPIRIT.

TO THE DOUBLE TALKING LIARS

The Sin and Doom of Ungodly People

jude 1

3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, WHO PERVERT THE ĢRACE OF OUR GOD INTO A LICENSE FOR IMMORALITY and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.

11 Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.

12 These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16 These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and WHO DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT.

26 As the body without the spirit is DEAD, so faith without deeds is DEAD.

DO NOT BE DECEIVED BY A "WALKING DEAD" THEOLOGY.

titus 1

16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, DISOBEDIENT and unfit for doing anything good.


ephesians 5

6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be partners with them.

You cannot defend your erroneous application of Jeremiah, so you go off on a different and possibly equally false trail, if I could be bothered to read it, while at the same time telling me, I "still refuse to accept how His people received the Law in the Old Covenant" when I know perfectly well how the law was given. At the same time you remain stuck in the same old miry clay. The trouble is, when you criticise people who adhere to God's word, it is actually the Almighty you are calling into question. Good luck to you!

When we died with Christ, there is no more quarreling, "A dead man is free from sin." Trouble is we are afraid of suffering with Him until we are perfect in Love. If you do the math and are good at it, you will understand why "Few there be that find it." "Many will seek to enter in and shall not be able." You will also understand, "All manner of sin shall be forgiven to man except rejecting the Holy Spirit." The Holy Spirit is perfect Love; carrying us to the Resurrection: Impossible otherwise. But some of you are still under a covenant that was abolished in the death of the one who established it: the only Way it could be abolished. Seems like God practically tricked His enemies who wanted to take over the kingdom to kill Him. "He came to deliver those who through fear of death were held their whole lifetime in bondage." We must count it Joy to suffer with Him, some of you despise sharing His sufferings, like what Loving God would desire us to suffer with Him. "If we suffer with Him we shall rule with Him." The "One God" who desires a Bride to rule with Him, a Bride who will not fall into pride of achievement and desire to kill Him and take over the kingdom. God doesn't want to rule eternity alone and "Will not share His Glory with another." That's a fine line, no wonder it's a straight narrow Way. "Love does not insist on it's own way." "Faith Hope and Love, remain for ever, these three but the greatest is Love." "Without Love I am nothing." And why rejecting the Holy Spirit can't be forgiven. Nothing can't be saved, the poor man has it, the rich man doesn't need it, and if you eat it you'll die. The fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil: a selfish existence. "Now concerning things offered to idols, we know that we all have knowledge, knowledge puffs up, but Love builds up." The tree of knowledge appear to be the mind of the flesh (the beast) an empty shell of what we were created to be, referred as ego by evolutionist: nothing evolving. "What fruit had ye in those things you are now ashamed."

as much as studyman goes to Jeremiah 31, he ignores chapter 30, which sets up 31 as specifically speaking to Israel after the return from Babylon.

All the more reason why he should apply it to himself.

I don't agree that the New Covenant is the replacement of the Law and Prophets, rather, as Jer. clearly says, a change in how God's Laws are administered, and a change in how sins are forgiven, all specific to the Priesthood.

There is nowhere in the Bible where the New Covenant re-defines sin or removes the Laws that define sin. Religious man had ADDED this teaching, not the God of the Bible, IMO. There is, however, clear instruction that the New Covenant IS the change in the Priesthood.

I made my case using God's Word's and you pretty much ignored it.

I'm OK with that.

You know.....I see the lawyer/Pharisee cannot understand one word so......

When I CHANGE my pants that means the OLD DIRTY PAIR COMES OFF and the NEW CLEAN PAIR goes ON.

There is a reason it is called OLD COVENANT and NEW COVENANT and a reason the NEW was RATIFIED by the shed blood of CHRIST.....it is utterly amazing how many will willingly and foolishly PLACE themselves under that which CONDEMNS them to a fiery hell while rejecting out of ignorance that which SETS FREE from the COVENANT of DEATH and CONDEMNATION.....

Why one WILL is given it is in force, and when a 2nd will is written and ratified it REPLACES the 1st will......a CHILD can understand this truth.....!

You know.......the words of the bible contradict a salvation that can be lost...let us notice these contradictions and in so doing understand that the word does not contradict itself....so....if we have dozens of truths that teach eternal security, any words that seem to teach differently cannot be correct and or must be taken out of context to teach salvation can be lost.

I will NEVER leave thee nor FORSAKE THEE <-to lose salvation we must be left and forsaken
I will LOSE NOTHING the Father has given me <--to lose salvation JESUS must lose us
We are KEPT by the power of GOD through faith<--to lose salvation we are not KEPT by God's power
JESUS begins, finishes and completes the work of FAITH in US<--JESUS must fail for us to lose Salvation
He that believes on the SON is having everlasting LIFE<--EVERLASTING must mean temporal and refer to above 2 points
We are in the Son's hand and the Father's hand<---We must be removed and or yanked from their hands
We are SEALED unto the DAY of redemption<--OUR sealing must be undone and chunk UNTO the day or redemption
We have been justified by the blood of Christ eternally <---we are again found guilty and the blood did not justify eternally
We have been positionally sanctified eternally<--Our position in Christ must be removed and eternally = temporary
Our spirit has been born again of incorruptible seed<--That which is born of God must be corruptible
We are saved to the UTTERMOST<--completely, forever, entirely<---this word must be denied
Where sin abounds grace abounds the more, written to believers<---God's grace MUST FAIL

Here are just a few biblical principles that must be swept aside to teach a salvation that can be lost.....there are dozens upon dozens that must be swept aside in order to embrace a salvation that can be lost.....do not believe the lie that we must earn, maintain or help keep our salvation secure....do not believe this lie circulated by a few that WE must keep on believing in order to remain saved...JESUS is the one that starts, finishes and COMPLETES the work of faith in us....salvation is by grace through faith and works do not finish, top off, embellish, add to, help maintain or keep salvation....

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

MOST of so called Christianity thinks it is FOOLISH that a man can just BELIEVE "HAVE FAITH into Christ" and be saved. The bible tells us that is exactly what one must do and is exactly what happens!

AMEN brother

Hebrews10:1

The Law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves.

I hear a lot from you about preservation of the Old Covenant and little about welcoming a New and better Covenant by grace through faith. The New Covenant is not a replacement of the Law and Prophets it is the "Fulfillment of the Old Covenant.", as told in the scripture's through Prophets of Old.

For you the original veil still remains and only in Christ can it be taken away, this is not a criticism of you, its only an honest plea for you to reconsider your theology. Your argument over the New Covenant being a replacement is not valid because the New Covenant is the "Fulfillment" of the Old not a "Replacement."

For most posters here I believe they view your theology as an intellectual ascension; not a penitent heart in search of forgiveness from a loving merciful God. Until you arrive at a heartfelt decision your theology is just an intellectual pursuit.

God is always waiting with open arms for anyone "who will believe", in the blood bought sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ which is the same way every Christian is born again, by putting "New Wine" into "New Wine Skin's"

God bless!

The New Covenant; and God will remember our sin's no more;

Isaiah43:25
"I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.

Matthew13:16,17
16) But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17) For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All:
Hebrews10:1
1) The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

Just off the top of my head I will say the law remains very much the same, in fact the law as Christ told it in the Sermon on the Mount is much stricter. The difference is that OT law condemns, while under New Testament law we are set free by the grace of God who paid the penalty for the sins of all those who accept Him as their Lord and Saviour.

.

What Law TT? How is "Thou shall not kill" a shadow of things to come and not the reality?

How is:17 "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him", A shadow of things to come but not the reality?

.

No TT, that is not true. You have never heard me even one time, ever, trying to "preserve the Old Covenant". You can't find a post where I have done this, not even once.

You have confused the "Old Covenant" the Word which became Flesh promised in Jer. 31, with the Law and Prophets that this Same Word said would be here as long as heaven and earth are here.

The Bible teaches that the New Covenant is the change in the Priesthood, not a re-writing of the Law and Prophets. As long as you continue to confuse these two things, we will be in disagreement.

For you the original veil still remains

Click to expand...

Again, since you have been convinced that the Old Covenant and the Law and the Prophets are the same thing, we are in disagreement. I appreciate your being honest, so am I.

8 For finding fault with them, (The Priesthood which was in charge of administering God's laws, and performing "works" for the removal of sins) he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

"After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts." (To preserve them, not preserve the Priesthood)

"saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity" (No more Levites to perform "Deeds of the Law" for remission of sins)




Well, it would certainly be easier to follow the religions of the land. But I simply can't reject what God's Word says just to please religious men.

I am discouraged by the vitriol and hatred stirred up by simply posting scriptures and applying them to life. And I am certainly not a perfect man, and have been drawn in to such pointless discussion as well. But each day I strive to hear what the Word says and begin anew with each breath.

I know and have been convinced by God's Word that the Old Covenant and the Law and Prophets are not the same thing. And that the New covenant is the "Change" of the Priesthood where we no longer go to a Levite, but the God of Abraham will write HIS Laws directly on our hearts, to preserve them, not to erase them.

The New Covenant; and God will remember our sin's no more;

Click to expand...

No more animal sacrifices and Levite Priests.

Matthew13:16,17
16)

Click to expand...

God's Faithful had been waiting for a long time His return and the New Covenant. (Read about Zechariahs and Anna and Simeon, who DID get to hear and see)

Again, Hebrew 7-10 is speaking only to the Priesthood which foreshadowed the perfect sacrifice and the perfect Blood. The Old and New Covenant ARE the old and the new Priesthood.

Heb. 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Heb. 8:
3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount

The Priesthood was ALL about the Christ. But the Levites corrupted the Priesthood.

Jer. 5:
30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;
31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

Matt. 15:
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Heb. 8:
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, (Levite Priests who bear rule by their own means) he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:


I appreciate your tone and concern. But I can't walk away from these Biblical truths.

True at he time they were written.

I'm talking about the "Good News" of our Salvation, the OT was a shadow of Good things to come. If you are unable to see that you are more blind than I thought you were. I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall, and the bible front to back is just one big argument to you so that you can occupy your time with, apity you on judgment day.

And I will not be answering any more of your condescending question, and I think most people here would agree, God be merciful to you in your state of unbelief.

I believe the Bible TT, I just don't believe your religion. You say the OT is only a shadow, while the Bible says the old Priesthood was the shadow. And to be honest, you never answered my questions, you ignored them.

Paul said this about the Law and the Prophets. Will you insult him as well?

1 cor. 10:
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

You preach the OT is obsolete. I am simply showing you that the Scriptures disagree with you. I'm sorry this made you so angry. that wasn't the intent.

I would say Noah, Abraham and Zechariahs, Simeon, Anna, and the wise men were also set free from their sins by the Grace of God. I don't see any difference between the "Mercy, Judgment and Faith the Christ taught in Matthew 5, and the Mercy, judgment and faith He taught as the Word which became Flesh, that the Priests "omitted" from their religious doctrines.