No Eternal Security = No Salvation?

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notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#41
May 17, 2013
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#41
Those who know they are saved are fully persuaded they are saved and do not waiver from that belief.

2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Those who are not persuaded are simply not set in the faith. They may not have the depth of belief in their hearts to be fully persuaded of their complete salvation and discipleship will rectify the matter. Others and I suspect this is the concern of the OP is that many profess that which they do not possess. They endeavor to sound and act like believers but they have never really trusted Christ for their salvation. They cannot release their own righteousness and rely completely on the righteousness of God in Christ.

Of the four types of soil onto which the seed fell only one did not germinate. Only one soil failed to produce anything and only one soil produced in full abundance. The other two produced life but it did not prosper.

Believing you can lose salvation that you cannot lose does not make salvation any less the work of God.

Souls are perishing every day and those who are lost perish forever in the lake of fire. We are to be warning them that they must be saved not arguing over the things we cannot control.

I would that you all were fully persuaded of your salvation but there are a lot of conditions in the heart that prevent maturity in the faith.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Endoscopy

Endoscopy

Senior Member
#42
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
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#42
PennEd said:
I hear what you are saying but it really doesn't scratch where I'm itchin!

It doesn't answer the question.
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You don't get it. There is just the agree to disagree about the issue. It is outside the Apostles Creed so there is just the agree to disagree left. This is why there are so many gospel preaching denominations. All of the issues that are outside of the creeds. There is also the 2 Nicene creeds and the Athenasian Creed. Issues abound outside of them where there are disagreements.
 
Jewel5712

Jewel5712

Well-known member
#43
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
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#43
Endoscopy said:
You don't get it. There is just the agree to disagree about the issue. It is outside the Apostles Creed so there is just the agree to disagree left. This is why there are so many gospel preaching denominations. All of the issues that are outside of the creeds. There is also the 2 Nicene creeds and the Athenasian Creed. Issues abound outside of them where there are disagreements.
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Soooo..what does your answer have to do with the OP?
 
Jewel5712

Jewel5712

Well-known member
#44
Jun 22, 2018
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#44
DiscipleDave said:
There is ONLY one day that will determine who is Saved and who is NOT Saved, and that is the Day of the Lord, when He Returns to the Earth to set up His Kingdom, and become King of Kings of the Earth.

Know you not that it is written, He that endures to the end shall be Saved? Know you not that the Apostle Paul wrote, that he is in a race, not that he has finished it yet?

i feel in my heart that i am SAVED today, does that mean i can't be blotted out of the Book of Life? NO! i believe with all my heart that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, died, and rose again, paid the penalties for my sins, and has forgiven me. Tomorrow i may decide to deny Jesus. i believe in Jesus today, but tomorrow i may hate someone, tomorrow i may not forgive someone EVER, two things that Scriptures teach will prevent me from going to Heaven. If i do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will i be forgiven of mine, is that not written? So today i am Saved, but i will have to endure to the end, in order to be SAVED, if i fail to endure to the end, then my name will have been blotted out of the book of Life, on that day when the Books are opened and whosoever name is written in the Book of Life, ON THAT DAY, shall be SAVED, whether they be dead in the graves, or alive on the Earth.

So this generation can make themselves FEEL better about themselves if they want to, by claiming they are already SAVED and nothing they can do will ever change that, (much weeping and gnashing from these same folks, so sad) But here is the TRUTH and Scriptures backs it up. There is ONLY ONE DAY that is Judgement Day, that will determine who is and who is not SAVED. That DAY is NOT today.

You may be walking in the light today, but walking in darkness next week.

Eph_5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Eph_5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

1Jn_1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1Jn_2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

1Jn_2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

1Jn_1:7 But if (Conditional) we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. . .. . . . .

When does His Blood cleanse us from All sin? When we walk in the Light and NOT in darkness. Woe to them who claim to be walking in the light, but walk in darkness, thinking that His Blood still cleanseth them. This generation needs to wake up from their sleeping, give up your life, start living a life for Jesus Christ and not for your own selves. Your Lord and Savior gave up His life for you, should you not be willing to give up that sin for Him? Give up that darkness for Him? Start walking in the light, and not that darkness that you do?

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave
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I
We will be JUDGED by God for our works or lack of them on earth but by saying our works maintain our salvation is saying Jesus death and resurrection wasnt enough and id HATE to be the person that comes face to face with God and tell HIM that His sons death "wasnt enough" and HIS PLAN OF SALVATION must have "loop holes" in it :(
 
NayborBear

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#45
Dec 6, 2015
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A deplorable! (so you know, what "state" I'm in!)
#45
Seems there are "discrepancies", as to the "salvation" of one's soul, and maturing, or the perfecting of one's "spirit" which has been "ascribed" to that particular soul!

Onced a believer professes with his mouth that Jesus is the Son of God, and becomes baptized? That soul? Is saved! Is everyone's "soul" of the same size and dimensions? Although, I cannot confirm, nor deny with anything biblical, I must conclude that yes! Each soul, is of the same size.

Just how "Ambulatory", each soul is in our "spiritual bodies?" Is where all these contentions and fuss seems to come into play and confusion!

The "difference" can be as much as walking around on 2 feet, like Jesus walked around? Or, "pulling" oneself along with just an arm, or a leg, or more? Or less! Yet, the "soul" is saved, until Judgement!

The "spiritual maturity", or lack of? THIS, is where arguments, and discussions needs be made!

For it is with spiritual maturity, that dictates who, or how many partake in the first resurrection!

Hebrews 4
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#46
#46
Splagna said:
No. I’m not OSAS and I know I’m saved. My OSAS and 5pt Calvinist friends never questioned whether my wife or I are saved. We attended the same fellowship and agreed to put our differences aside to work on evangelism and discipleship. Sure, we discussed our differences on occasion, but it never came close to the hate fest as seen on this forum.

PennEd, please don’t take this as disparaging you at all. I’d rather love on ya rather than fight with you any day. But please be careful judging, especially regarding one’s salvation, those who don’t agree with your particular dogma.
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Why is it that people always push OSAS and calvanism as a group. MANY people believe in eternal security (what many call OSAS) and have or want nothing to do with calvanism?
Just asking

And may i ask, what are your views on salvation? Do you have eternal life? Or do you believe you may have eternal life, but not right now?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#47
#47
dcontroversal said:
I know that I will catch it for this, but at the end of the day there is but ONE gospel that has power to save a man...the bible is clear on this subject...when we embellish the gospel we make it VOID WITH NO POWER TO SAVE......a prime example of a gospel that has been embellished is found in the very words of JESUS and he uses the words PLENTEOUS IN NUMBER "MANY"....and the reason he uses the word MANY IS BECAUSE MOST so called Christian religions peddle a form of this gospel....

a. They claim to know Jesus "Call him Lord"
b. They believe their right to enter the kingdom is based upon what they have done <--first on the list is works!

THIS BOILS DOWN TO A FAITH PLUS WORKS DOGMA.....

Jesus states clearly that he never KNEW THEM.....they were never saved to begin with and or then lost it.

Can I/we judge a man's salvation.....NO

Can I/we judge a man's gospel and or the validity to save a man or not by the word of God.....YES

Faith plus anything to gain salvation is false and has no power!

A gospel that teaches a salvation that can be lost has no power!

A gospel that teaches we must do something after faith to maintain salvation has no power!

A gospel that teaches any human effort, merit or self sustaining salvation has no power!

A gospel that goes outside the power and faith of Christ to keep one saved has no power!

It is ALL JESUS OR IT IS NOT SALVATION!
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Amen, This is my view

There is one gospel which saved, Not two, not three not 100, Paul said anyone who taught a different (in kind) gospel, which is not a different (Another gospel which will save) shoudl be anathema’d. So how can two people with two gospels both be saved?

I would like to hear the reasoning why people think this.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#48
#48
Splagna said:
Ok, let me ask you this: When James and Peter tells us to, Resist the devil and he will flee from you (James 4:7, 8; 1 Peter 5:8, 9 NASB) or when Paul tells us, But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh (Galatians 5:16) or Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts (Romans 6:12)… they are telling us not to do anything?
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If your trying to do those things to maintain salvation, Your trying to save yourself. Ie, trying to earn your salvation by your own righteousness.

People do those things because they are saved, out of appreciation and gratitude because of what God did for them, and out of faith, because true faith causes true actions.
When are you going to stop with this Strawman and admit for once you are trying to save yourself by obeying these commands? And not obeyeing these commands because you have faith in God, and out of gratitude that he saved you? Because you do not even TRULY believe you are saved, You can’t no matter how hard you deny it.
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#49
Apr 22, 2013
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#49
Endoscopy said:
You don't get it. There is just the agree to disagree about the issue. It is outside the Apostles Creed so there is just the agree to disagree left. This is why there are so many gospel preaching denominations. All of the issues that are outside of the creeds. There is also the 2 Nicene creeds and the Athenasian Creed. Issues abound outside of them where there are disagreements.
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I have been around the block enough times to understand "agree to disagree". But guess what? Part of the whole point of discussing the Bible is to engage in these types of discussions. These are difficult questions that almost certainly don't have definitive answers.

Here is a question that virtually every respondent has said they don't know also. Do you know how rare that is? Some heavily suspect one way or the other, but none definitively know. I actually expected people to say "yes they are still saved" or "no they are not saved".

Our responses may be very helpful to someone who is struggling in their mind, possibly being demonically attacked, that they have lost their Salvation.

I can tell you yrs ago when this issue caused a great struggle and anxiety to me that the Holy Spirit popped various Scriptures in my head AND also led me here, where some were used of Him to give me that blessed assurance.

One of the most awesome revelations was that the Prodigal son THOUGHT he had lost his sonship. He was desperately hoping he could be just a lowly servant to the owner of the property. We know that his father never even entertained that thought!

So yeah, I fully recognize this as a difficult, perhaps impossible to answer question, but it just might be the medicine that some are looking for.

I have been a Christian for over 25yrs and have YET to find a single brother or sister that thinks exactly as I do on every issue. But we still discuss them, and rare though it is, sometimes persuade each other to their point.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#50
#50
Splagna said:
So ongoing sanctification, i.e. resisting the devil, walking by the Spirit or not letting sin reign in the Christian’s body has nothing to do with salvation? Not resisting the devil, and not walking in the Spirit, or letting sin reign in one's body won't affect one's salvation?
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If it does. Then we are not saved by grace are we? Is this not earning our salvation by doing these things, hence the term, saved by works?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#51
#51
Splagna said:
In the OP you asked, “So my question is does thinking you can lose your Salvation equate to NOT being saved?” That question is clearly an invitation to judge whether non OSAS believers are saved. You have invited others to judge and therefore have involved yourself in the judging process by asking the question.
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You should read his whole statment before you judge, He asked a question, do you have an answer for him, or are you just going to judge him falsly?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#52
#52
Jewel5712 said:
A choice is made conciously..not SUBcontiously..

Grace doesnt not teach people how to live..Grace is a gift FROM God that can cover us in our human sin natured imperfectness..God teaches us how o live

Are you asking if we an 'accidentally" be saved?
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I agree in part. The part I disagree with is that grace does not teach us how to live, I think it does. Grace (God forgiving us) teaches us how to love others (including to forgive them or show them grace as God forgave us) which is part of the sanctification process. it is when we do not understand grace or live in fear of the unknown that we can not learn to love others as God loved us, Because deep inside, we are not even sure God has really forgiven us We are still trying to maintain this salvation we say is a gift.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#53
#53
PennEd said:
I have been around the block enough times to understand "agree to disagree". But guess what? Part of the whole point of discussing the Bible is to engage in these types of discussions. These are difficult questions that almost certainly don't have definitive answers.

Here is a question that virtually every respondent has said they don't know also. Do you know how rare that is? Some heavily suspect one way or the other, but none definitively know. I actually expected people to say "yes they are still saved" or "no they are not saved".

Our responses may be very helpful to someone who is struggling in their mind, possibly being demonically attacked, that they have lost their Salvation.

I can tell you yrs ago when this issue caused a great struggle and anxiety to me that the Holy Spirit popped various Scriptures in my head AND also led me here, where some were used of Him to give me that blessed assurance.

One of the most awesome revelations was that the Prodigal son THOUGHT he had lost his sonship. He was desperately hoping he could be just a lowly servant to the owner of the property. We know that his father never even entertained that thought!

So yeah, I fully recognize this as a difficult, perhaps impossible to answer question, but it just might be the medicine that some are looking for.

I have been a Christian for over 25yrs and have YET to find a single brother or sister that thinks exactly as I do on every issue. But we still discuss them, and rare though it is, sometimes persuade each other to their point.
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This begs another question then.

Why do they fear, what is the motivation behind not knowing they are secure in Christ, ie the heart of the issue, if we know this, I think we can know.
 
LW97

LW97

Senior Member
#54
Apr 10, 2018
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#54
Actually there are many who believe in salvation loss, but also say they believe in eternal security. They just do not believe in unconditional eternal security
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#55
#55
LW97 said:
Actually there are many who believe in salvation loss, but also say they believe in eternal security. They just do not believe in unconditional eternal security
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Then they do not believe in eternal security. They believe in conditional security
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#56
Apr 22, 2013
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#56
eternally-gratefull said:
This begs another question then.

Why do they fear, what is the motivation behind not knowing they are secure in Christ, ie the heart of the issue, if we know this, I think we can know.
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I really think in some cases it truly is baby Christians, like I was, that haven't been given revelation to exactly who they are now. And so thought that their sin and wandering away, could separate themselves from God after believing in Jesus.

"Lord I believe! Help my unbelief!" On the surface, this seems to be an oxymoronic type statement. This man believed, but still had doubts. Was Jesus' response " Well then I can't help you!"

No. He healed this man's son, and I bet after that revelation THE MAN FULLY BELIEVED!

Yet I think this vastly differs from the one who does not believe in eternal security, but has no fear of losing it because they actually count on THEIR following, and obedience to save them.

This question may boil down to these 2 type groups that disbelieve in eternal security.
 
BaptistBibleBeliever

BaptistBibleBeliever

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#57
Sep 9, 2018
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#57
Those that are truly saved that have 'lost' their salvation have lost the present tense of that salvation.

We are saved from our past, and we are promised to eternally live with the redeemed into all eternity . . . but many are not so blessed in the so-called 'nasty here-and-now'. I quote Paul.

"Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen" (Galatians 1:3-5).

I have clung to my simple childlike faith for 42 years now . . . and if there is one thing that I have learned is that "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself" (II Timothy 2:13).
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#58
#58
PennEd said:
I really think in some cases it truly is baby Christians, like I was, that haven't been given revelation to exactly who they are now. And so thought that their sin and wandering away, could separate themselves from God after believing in Jesus.

"Lord I believe! Help my unbelief!" On the surface, this seems to be an oxymoronic type statement. This man believed, but still had doubts. Was Jesus' response " Well then I can't help you!"

No. He healed this man's son, and I bet after that revelation THE MAN FULLY BELIEVED!

Yet I think this vastly differs from the one who does not believe in eternal security, but has no fear of losing it because they actually count on THEIR following, and obedience to save them.

This question may boil down to these 2 type groups that disbelieve in eternal security.
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Now see, I believe in eternal security, but many times in my life, I believed my past sins were so severe, I questioned my salvation.

I do not nbelieve I have to work to earn salvation or I will lose it.. I question if I have it at all (sometimes)

I think that is a difference.

if one believes they are only saved if they live up to some standard, ie, they must do all these works and make this standard or they are not saved, and go around preaching this to other people as part of the gospel. Then I have to question their gospel.. are they saved at all?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#59
#59
BaptistBibleBeliever said:
Those that are truly saved that have 'lost' their salvation have lost the present tense of that salvation.

We are saved from our past, and we are promised to eternally live with the redeemed into all eternity . . . but many are not so blessed in the so-called 'nasty here-and-now'. I quote Paul.

"Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen" (Galatians 1:3-5).

I have clung to my simple childlike faith for 42 years now . . . and if there is one thing that I have learned is that "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself" (II Timothy 2:13).
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How did they lose that salvation?
 
BaptistBibleBeliever

BaptistBibleBeliever

Well-known member
#60
Sep 9, 2018
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#60
Those that teach one can lose that 'free gift' which the Saviour gave are pulling verses from the gospels . . . men did not understand the grace of God until Paul revealed the mystery of the gospel in the epistles.

"Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into" (I Peter 1:9-12).
 
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