is this Messianic?

is Ecclesiastes 4:13-16 describing Christ?
i'm interested to read all of your understanding, whatever it my be, whatever you see here.

here it is in a variety of English translation:

• Better is a poor and a wise child than an old and foolish king, who will no more be admonished. For out of prison he cometh to reign; whereas also he that is born in his kingdom becometh poor. I considered all the living which walk under the sun, with the second child that shall stand up in his stead. There is no end of all the people, even of all that have been before them: they also that come after shall not rejoice in him. Surely this also is vanity and vexation of spirit.
  • AKJV
• Better a poor but wise youth than an old but foolish king who no longer knows how to heed a warning. The youth may have come from prison to the kingship, or he may have been born in poverty within his kingdom. I saw that all who lived and walked under the sun followed the youth, the king’s successor. There was no end to all the people who were before them. But those who came later were not pleased with the successor. This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind.
  • NIV
• A poor yet wise lad is better than an old and foolish king who no longer knows how to receive instruction. For he has come out of prison to become king, even though he was born poor in his kingdom. I have seen all the living under the sun throng to the side of the second lad who replaces him. There is no end to all the people, to all who were before them, and even the ones who will come later will not be happy with him, for this too is vanity and striving after wind.
  • NASB
• Better was a poor and wise youth than an old and foolish king who no longer knew how to take advice. For he went from prison to the throne, though in his own kingdom he had been born poor. I saw all the living who move about under the sun, along with that youth who was to stand in the king's place. There was no end of all the people, all of whom he led. Yet those who come later will not rejoice in him. Surely this also is vanity and a striving after wind.
  • ESV
• Better is a poor and wise child, than an old and foolish King, which will no more be admonished.
  For out of the prison he cometh forth to reign: when as he that is born in his kingdom, is made poor.
  I beheld all the living, which walk under the Sun with the second child, which shall stand up in his place.
  There is none end of all the people, nor of all that were before them, and they that come after, shall not rejoice in him: surely this is also vanity and vexation of spirit
  • GNV
• Better is a poor and wise youth than an old and foolish king, who hath not known to be warned any more.
  For from a house of prisoners he hath come out to reign, for even in his own kingdom he hath been poor.
  I have seen all the living, who are walking under the sun, with the second youth who doth stand in his place;
  there is no end to all the people, to all who were before them; also, the latter rejoice not in him. Surely this also is vanity and vexation of spirit.
  • YLT

Hard to say Bones - I don't think so.

Adam Clarke's commentary:

Verse 13

Better is a poor and a wise child - The Targum applies this to Abraham. "Abraham was a poor child of only three years of age; but he had the spirit of prophecy, and he refused to worship the idols which the old foolish king - Nimrod - had set up; therefore Nimrod cast him into a furnace of fire. But the Lord worked a miracle and delivered him. Yet here was no knowledge in Nimrod, and he would not be admonished." The Targum proceeds:


Verse 14
For out of prison he cometh to reign - "Then Abraham left the country of the idolaters, where he had been imprisoned, and came and reigned over the land of Canaan; and Nimrod became poor in this world." This is the fact to which the ancient rabbins supposed Solomon to allude.


Verse 15
With the second child that shall stand up - The Targum applies this to the case of Jeroboam and Rehoboam. History affords many instances of mean persons raised to sovereign authority, and of kings being reduced to the meanest offices, and to a morsel of bread. Agrippa himself ascended the throne of Israel after having been long in prison. See Josephus, Ant. lib. 18: c. 8. This the heathens attributed to
fortune.

Si fortuna volet, fies de rhetore consul;

Si volet haec eadem, fies de consule rhetor.

Juv. Sat. vii., ver. 197.

Though I have given what the Jews suppose to be the allusion in these verses, yet the reader may doubt whether the reference be correct. There is a case implied, whether from fact or assumption I cannot say; but it seems to be this:

A king who had abused the authority vested in him by oppressing the people, had a son whose prudent conduct promised much comfort to the nation, when he should come to the throne. The father, seeing the popular wish, and becoming jealous of his son, shut him up in prison. In the interim the old king either dies or is deposed, and the son is brought out of prison, and placed on the throne. Then ( Ecclesiastes 4:15, Ecclesiastes 4:16) multitudes of the people flock to him, and begin to walk under the sun; i.e., the prosperous state to which the nation is raised by its redemption from the former tyranny. However, the wise man insinuates that this sunshine will not last long. The young king, feeling the reins in his own hands, and being surrounded by those whose interest it was to flatter in order to obtain and continue in court favor, he also becomes corrupted so that those who come after shall have no cause of rejoicing in him. This appears to be the case; and similar cases have frequently occurred, not only in Asiatic, but also in European history, I have, in another place, referred to the case of Rushn Achter, who was brought out of prison and set upon the throne of Hindoostan. This is expressed in the following elegant Persian couplet, where his fortune is represented as similar to that of the patriarch Joseph: -

"The bright star is now become a moon:

Joseph is taken out of prison, and become a king."

Rushn Achter signifies a bright or splendid star.

Does not seem that way. A rather enigmatic passage.

of course...

It could apply to Jesus as the Son of Man.

I think it applies to actual rulers. The old king had become arrogant, and so the people were delighted to have a young new king. Short lived, for soon they became dissatisfied with him too. Reminds me of politics today. And that arrogance is not pretty.

Ecc 4:13 Better is a poor and a wise child than an old and foolish king, who will no more be admonished.
Ecc 4:14 For out of prison he cometh to reign; whereas also he that is born in his kingdom becometh poor.
Ecc 4:15 I considered all the living which walk under the sun, with the second child that shall stand up in his stead.
Ecc 4:16 There is no end of all the people, even of all that have been before them: they also that come after shall not rejoice in him. Surely this also is vanity and vexation of spirit.

It is talking about an earthly king, and it calls the king that does reign an old and foolish king, who will no longer be admonished, which would not apply to Christ, and also the second child is the earthly king's son, that shall stand up in his stead who will also not be admonished when he dies, for those that come after shall not rejoice in him, so it is not speaking of Christ.

Solomon is not describing Christ, but the book is about people in general that whether rich, or poor, or king, or peasant, and what position on earth, the poor and the rich, and their different positions on earth, have the same things befall them, and all is vanity that they do unless they fear God, and keep His commandments, which is the only profit.

Ecc 1:16 I communed with mine own heart, saying, Lo, I am come to great estate, and have gotten more wisdom than all they that have been before me in Jerusalem: yea, my heart had great experience of wisdom and knowledge.
Ecc 1:17 And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.
Ecc 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

Which Solomon should know because he applied himself to enjoy sin, and was the wisest king in Israel, and realized it was all in vain.

Ecc 1:1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.
Ecc 1:2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
Ecc 1:3 What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?
Ecc 1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

Ecc 1:14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.

Ecc 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.
Ecc 4:2 Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive.
Ecc 4:3 Yea, better is he than both they, which hath not yet been, who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun.
Ecc 4:4 Again, I considered all travail, and every right work, that for this a man is envied of his neighbour. This is also vanity and vexation of spirit.

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Solomon is speaking of people in general whether rich, or poor, whether king, or peasant, it is all vanity that they do, and the same things happen to all of them.

The king shall come to nought, just the same as the peasant, and the rich shall come to nought, the same as the poor, and bad things happen to both, and the only thing that matters is that they follow God.

• For from a house of prisoners he hath come out to reign, for even in his own kingdom he hath been poor.

the Son of God, King of all kings, was born 'a man' made 'in the likeness of sinful flesh' -- 'born under the Law' and had 'no place to lay His head'

• I have seen all the living, who are walking under the sun, with the second youth who doth stand in his place;

He is 'the life' and 'in Him we live and move and have our being' - 'all things are made by Him' and He 'knows all things' even 'what is in the heart of men' - He stands in the place of Moses, the great intercessor between God and man, with 'all authority in heaven and earth' given to Him, like Moses, like kings, like angels, but greater than all of them.

• there is no end to all the people, to all who were before them; also, the latter rejoice not in him.

'a great multitude, which no man can number' stand before Him. all shall stand before Him in judgement - and in the latter days, at the end of the age, 'will He find faith on the earth?' and 'all nations' will rise up to attack, and He will destroy all His enemies with the breath of His mouth - a slaughter so great that blood pools up to the stirrups of a horseman's saddle.

Yes he is the one who set the captive prisoners, us free.

"Better is a poor and wise child than an old and foolish king, who knows not how to take heed any longer.
For he shall come forth out of the house of the prisoners to reign, because he also that was in his kingdom has become poor.
I beheld all the living who were walking under the sun, with the second youth who shall stand up in each one’s place."
LXX Brenton

When I read the text in the masoretic version (NIV and others), its always seemed to me its about David and Saul.

When I read in in the LXX, I have no idea what it is about.

amen ♥

and . .

i'm seeing a connection here with "for out of the prison he cometh forth to reign"

Yes, LXX version and the masoretic version.

Ecclesiastes 4:13-16
An isolated leader. Some ambiguous pronouns in v l4 means that this passage can be read in several ways. The NIV is probably correct. The elderly king of v 13 was wise once (as no longer suggests) but lost his wisdom. The word for poor refers to humble origins. Youth ranges in age from teens to forties. In v l4 his refers to the king. A young man arises; he had everything against him but the king became isolated (implied in v 15). The isolation of the older man led to the success of the younger. The younger man was successful for a while (15). In v 16 before them means ‘were their subjects’. For the younger man also popularity was not lasting. He repeated the cycle. Two main points that are true universally arise from the story: that isolation is part of the painfulness of human experience, and that the new generation did not solve the problem of the older generation (see 1:9-11).

(New Bible Commentary Inter-Varsity Press)

I think it's more of a mess

an old and foolish king is referring to Solomon himself -
there are NO WEAKNESSES in Christ Jesus our Lord,
for He is The Rock...

if it's foreshadowing Jesus, then the old and foolish king who doesn't remember how to heed a warning anymore could also be referring to the Sanhedrin, sitting 'in the seat of Moses' and not comprehending the message of John the baptist, saying 'make straight the way'

and in re: 'a youth,' Jesus was 12 when this happened:

what a wonderful reply, thank you

did the latter people not rejoice in Joseph? he was given an honorable burial in Egypt, Gen. 50:26, and honored by all his sons, Gen. 47-49
i don't see anything in the text that suggests the youth is the son of the king described. depending on how it's translated, it strongly suggests he is not.


srry, Mssr. Clarke