Predestination or free wiil.

I am not sure what you think calvinists say about this verse... can you quote someone?

Also "trying to rewrite Bible to fit the agenda" is a problem of all Christians, not just of one specific group, be just.

Calvinists use verse 4 to say that they were in Christ before the foundation of the world. Talk to any Calvinist and that's how they read it. I've been in several debates over this issue. It's certainly nothing new.

That's part of the spiritual blessings in heavenly places that are found in Christ. Before the foundation of the world, God chose these spiritual blessings to be given to those in Christ. No one was placed in Christ before the foundation of the world. If that's the case, then they fell out of Christ at the fall and were enemies of Christ until the new birth.

It still says their salvation was already known By God. and was just as assured as if they were already saved.

What was given again was what was said,

we were chosen IN HIM to be holy and without blame, ie, our salvation was assured. We were predestined to be saved or holy and without blame.

This part I agree with the calvinist, what I do not agree with is WHY we were predestined or how.

Yes, us in him, those of us in Christ. However, one doesn't get in Christ until they hear and believe the gospel of Christ not anytime before. The spiritual blessings were placed in Christ before the foundation of the world. Christ was the way God was going to bless the world, especially to them that believe.

I am not arguing this point, I know it is not actually received until we receive Jesus

I am stating a fact. Jesus KNEW WHO WE WOULD BE before the foundation. ie. Our salvation was secured before that foundation.

The passage says we (I) was PREDESTINED before the world to be HOLY AND WITHOUT BLAME.

My salvation was already assured, it is not somethign that just popped up the moment I had faith. Thats why I have hope in God, Because God knew from the begining..

The passage does not say we were predestinated before the world to be holy and without blame.

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Those who are in him, in Christ, have been predestinated unto the adoption. The adoption is a future even known as the redemption of our bodies.

We are not predestined for anything other than to seek truth. When we are so we are at the doorstep of being truthful when we learn it.

Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life……..no plainer can it be said.

Thank bro,

No man come unless father draws.

I believe loving Father draws everybody, because loving Father do not want people go to hell. The problem is not every body accept or agree to be draws by Father.

Draws in this case is invite, the invitation letter is john 3:16

Targeting whosoever believe. Seem to me whosoever mean every body, so the invitation is open to everybody. Up to our free will to accept or respon to the invitation.

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

It says Chose US, that WE (same people) Should be holy and without blame.

Not sure why you keep saying it says something does not say it certainly does say

Again, Predestined US (who is us? that woudl be a group I am part of) To be adopted. what happens to those who are adopted? They are holy and without blame...



That future even is predestined to occur, Nothing can stop it. It is set in stone. It will happen.. Because God foreknew and those who foreknew he did predestined to also be conformed to the image of God..

You need to read this passage and every passage about predestination. Because it says so much more than this..

it does not say I was predestned to seek truth. where do you come up with this stuff?

Cow is animal, it doesn't mean animal is cow. Animal can be cow or snake etc.

Believer is because draws by Father, it doesn't mean Father not draws non believer. Father may draws non believer, but non believer refused it.

Matt 22
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

God chose people not on random bases. God chose the one that on the wedding garment.

Before the foundation of the world, God create Eden for Adam and his offspring.

But if Adam and his offspring refused His plan Than do not blame God and say God only love some.

Bible say

John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

To me love the world in this verse mean love all. But only whosoever believe will be save.

Yes there is election, but this verse tell the reason to be elect, and the requairment is believe.

Chose us "in him"...

God chose us who are in Christ. To be part of God's choosing, one must be in Christ. In order to be in Christ, one must know the way in Christ. And that way is through the gospel of Jesus Christ.

When does God know us? When we trust the gospel and are found in Christ. God knows us at salvation.

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Hello RDK,

I've got a possible solution to this longstanding argument:

Both Predestined and Freewill apply to a believer's life. God can override us and do whatever He wants; however, God wants us to know Him and love Him. This involves us having a choice because love without a choice is NOT love.

So, God offers us two paths - the Path of Life (God's Will) or the Path of Death (our will). This is the choice we make. This is our freewill - we get to choose which path. This is when we choose God or ourselves. Remember Moses said, "I set before you life and death. Choose life."

Both paths are predestined. Their end is predetermined and unchangeable. If I choose the Path of Life which is God's Will for my life, it ends with Eternal Life with God. If I choose the Path of Death which is my will for my life, it ends with Eternal Death apart from God. NOTHING changes the end of the path - it is predestined.

I may jump back and forth between the two paths; however, once I settle down and finalize my decision, my end is predestined.

On each path way I have "wiggle room freewill" which is that I get to make choices, but they do not interfere with the final end of the path.

So, predestination and freewill do not contradict each other and both apply. God does not want robots. He wants our genuine love for Him.

My thoughts exactly. Allowing Scripture to speak for itself. When did God know you? Before or after salvation?

9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?