Not By Works

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Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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He peddles that creed like a sale at Walmart.......the bible is the only rule of faith and practice...........there is no need of some creed written centuries after the word of God was completed and being passed around the churches......it is ridiculous.....
As I stated before it was created by the early elders for 3 purposes.
1. Define what a Christian must believe.
2. Define anything contrary to it as heresy.
3. Let any issues outside it to be agree to disagree.

They were created between 212 and 500.

You keep ranting against it but have never answered my challenge to find anything non Biblical in the creeds. Put up or shut up. If you don't want to use them as designed by the early elders then ignore them or define where they are not Biblical. Start explaining how they are not Biblical. I guess you feel the same way about teaching literature used in Sunday School classes. Not the Bible so must reject them. Bible only and nothing else.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Sorry....don't buy it....Paul preached to the known world, turned the world upside down and the gospel was spread by word of mouth, witnessing and the church letters were passed around between the churches.....the creeds were not written until some 200 to 500 years after the completion of the word of God.....
You tell the board how at that time people were supposed to obtain a Bible!!! This is the fatal flaw in your argument. Until the printing presses were invented Bibles were rare and exceedingly expensive. Scribes copied them by hand taking weeks to complete. After they finished there were several tests done. If it failed any test the document was destroyed. One test was count to a location in the middle of the text and compare that letter to the original document. Doesn't match it is destroyed. This to insure a good copy without errors..

So OK wizz kid explain how only the Bible was acceptable before the printing press!!!
 
Oct 7, 2018
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It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!

English Standard Version
he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Berean Study Bible
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Berean Literal Bible
He saved us, not by works in righteousness that we did, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

New American Standard Bible
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

King James Bible
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Silly claim; works are a PART of REAL Faith: "Faith WITHOUT works is DEAD!"- James, oine of Jesus' brothers
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Silly claim; works are a PART of REAL Faith: "Faith WITHOUT works is DEAD!"- James, oine of Jesus' brothers
Silly reply lacking context......and too be honest reeks of ignorance.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by FAITH without the deeds/works of the law <---Paul who wrote almost half the N.T.

Maybe you should study the following word and then try to wrap your head around the truth.

con·text
ˈkäntekst/
noun

  1. the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.
    "the decision was taken within the context of planned cuts in spending"
    synonyms:circumstances, conditions, factors, state of affairs, situation, background, scene, settin
 
Oct 7, 2018
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Ever follow your OWN advice?
Paul was inspired to write how some would try to justify themselves by their faith alone- or by their works alone.
He showed works were a PART of real faith.
Or do you do NOTHING with what you think you know?
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
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Where is your refutation of the creeds!! Can't do it can you!!

All you have done is rant against them without any Biblical reason and ignore the fact that many gospel preaching churches use them in their service. You probably ignore things like the quinquarticular controversy. The 5 opposing points between Calvinism and Armenianism. Do you even understand the differences?? Both sides have a lengthy dissertation about them backed up by many scripture references. Here you go Bible only guy, refute either one of them.

Five Points of Calvinism and Armenianism
Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages

The five points of Arminianism (from Jacobus Arminius 1559-1609) are in contrast to the five points of Calvinism (from from John (Jehan) Calvin 1509-1564). The Arminian five points with the Calvinist points listed beneath it are listed below.

1.
Human Free Will--This states that though man is fallen, he is not incapacitated by the sinful nature and can freely choose God. His will is not restricted and enslaved by his sinful nature.
Total Depravity - - this states a man is incapable to choose God.

2.
Conditional Election--God chose people for salvation based on His foreknowledge where God looks into the future to see who would respond to the gospel message.
Unconditional Election - - God reached in and chose forcing the person to respond to the gospel message.

3.
Universal Atonement--The position that Jesus bore the sin of everyone who ever lived.
Limited Atonement - - Jesus only bore the sin for only those who choose him.

4.
Resistable Grace--The teaching that the grace of God can be resisted and finally beaten so as to reject salvation in Christ.
Irresistible Grace - - The teaching that when God reaches in and touches the person his grace is irresistible.

5.
Fall from Grace--The Teaching that a person can fall from grace and lose his salvation.
Perseverance of the Saints - - Once saved always saved OSAS.

Armenian
1. Free will
2. ConditionalElection
3. Universal Atonement
4. Resistable Grace
5. Fall from Grace

Basically, Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.

1. Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
2. Unconditional Election
3. Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
4. Irresistible Grace
5. Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)


Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Ever follow your OWN advice?
Paul was inspired to write how some would try to justify themselves by their faith alone- or by their works alone.
He showed works were a PART of real faith.
Or do you do NOTHING with what you think you know?
Which work is part of real faith?

And while I am asking how much work is part of real faith?
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83
Silly reply lacking context......and too be honest reeks of ignorance.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by FAITH without the deeds/works of the law <---Paul who wrote almost half the N.T.

Maybe you should study the following word and then try to wrap your head around the truth.

con·text
ˈkäntekst/
noun

  1. the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.
    "the decision was taken within the context of planrned cuts in spending"
    synonyms:circumstances, conditions, factors, state of affairs, situation, background, scene, settin
Here is Jesus first talking about fruit (works) by which we are to discern the wolves in sheep's clothing from fellow Christians. Then James defining the relationship between faith and works. Works doesn't save but faith without works is dead faith. True faith generates works and Jesus pointed out without works the person is not a Christian. They are wolves in sheep's clothing. Ministers never preaching the gospel message are an example.

Matthew 7 NIV Jesus quoted
True and False Prophets
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Matthew 7 AMPC
15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you dressed as sheep, but inside they are devouring wolves.
16 You will fully recognize them by their fruits. Do people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
17 Even so, every healthy (sound) tree bears good fruit [worthy of admiration], but the sickly (decaying, worthless) tree bears bad (worthless) fruit.
18 A good (healthy) tree cannot bear bad (worthless) fruit, nor can a bad (diseased) tree bear [ excellent fruit [worthy of admiration].
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire.
20 Therefore, you will fully know them by their fruits.


James 2 NIV
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

James 2 AMPC
14 What is the use (profit), my brethren, for anyone to profess to have faith if he has no [good] works [to show for it]? Can [such] faith save [his soul]?
15 If a brother or sister is poorly clad and lacks food for each day,
16 And one of you says to him, Good-bye! Keep [yourself] warm and well fed, without giving him the necessities for the body, what good does that do?
17 So also faith, if it does not have works (deeds and actions of obedience to back it up), by itself is destitute of power (inoperative, dead).
18 But someone will say [to you then], You [say you] have faith, and I have [good] works. Now you show me your [alleged] faith apart from any [good] works [if you can], and I by [good] works [of obedience] will show you my faith.
19 You believe that God is one; you do well. So do the demons believe and shudder [in terror and horror such as make a man’s hair stand on end and contract the surface of his skin]!
20 Are you willing to be shown [proof], you foolish (unproductive, spiritually deficient) fellow, that faith apart from [good] works is inactive and ineffective and worthless?
21 Was not our forefather Abraham [shown to be] justified (made acceptable to God) by [his] works when he brought to the altar as an offering his [own] son Isaac?
22 You see that [his] faith was cooperating with his works, and [his] faith was completed and reached its supreme expression [when he implemented it] by [good] works.
23 And [so] the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed in (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on) God, and this was accounted to him as righteousness (as conformity to God’s will in thought and deed), and he was called God’s friend.
24 You see that a man is justified (pronounced righteous before God) through what he does and not alone through faith [through works of obedience as well as by what he believes].
25 So also with Rahab the harlot—was she not shown to be justified (pronounced righteous before God) by [good] deeds when she took in the scouts (spies) and sent them away by a different route?
26 For as the human body apart from the spirit is lifeless, so faith apart from [its] works of obedience is also dead.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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It is a statement about their faith in God. It defines in a short statement their faith in God, Jesus, etc.
"It comes from the heart."
Why oh why do you want to ignore the positive uses of the creeds?
Hi Endoscopy, I accept your 3 points as being useful from days of old to identify what a True Christian believes. But that does not translate to our world of technology today does it. And I think you have gone a step to far to say that, "it come from the heart." How can anyone know what is in the heart of a man or a woman.

Point is, VCO verified that he repeated the creed every Sunday Morning as part of the Lutheran Liturgy, but, he said he was not saved. That is why to say that it comes from the heart is not a valid point, because you cannot possibly know what is in a man's heart.

Ronald Reagan in a different context used the phrase, "trust but verify", why because human beings can be deceitful. What was useful in days of old does not translate to "useful", in today's world of technology. You are a High Tech Engineer, with a logical background. Surely logic would tell you that by saying words that were created by well meaning men centuries ago will not guarantee "who is a real" Christian, saying a creed cannot.

The gift of "Eternal Salvation" and the regeneration of a born again Christian is rooted in our faith in God. Saying a ritualistic creed every Sunday Morning is not a guarantee that you are a "real Christian." "The Eternal Destination", of a loved one is the point, are they on the path to heaven or to hell. Repeating the ritualistic traditions of days of old created by men, cannot save a living soul.

God bless
 
Oct 7, 2018
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James 2:14- What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?
15- If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food,
16- and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?
17- So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
ALL SIN can be repented. If the person is truly sorry and humbles themself and repents, ALL sin can be repented..
"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God" (Hebrews 6.1 KJV bible).
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
James 2:14- What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?
15- If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food,
16- and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?
17- So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
What does dead mean?