HELL, DEATH, DESTRUCTION

There have been many conversations over the centuries as to what happens to those who are not saved by God. Some claim that souls do not die. However, God says they do. (Ezekiel 18:4, Ezekiel 18:20, Matthew 10:28) This is the second death spoken of in Revelation 2:11, Revelation 20:6, Revelation 21:8. God also refers to it as "everlasting destruction". (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10) Or to perish. Many also claim that Hell is eternal yet God says it is not. (Revelation 20:14) Although Hell is not eternal, the punishmen is. The wages of sin is death. Eternal death of the soul. God is very clear that the wicked will be destroyed forever! (Proverbs 24:20, Psalm 37:10, Psalms 37:20, Psalm 37:28, Psalm 37:38, Psalm 37:20, Psalm 92:7, Psalm 112:10, Psalm 145:20) Annihilationism seems to indicate a "free pass" to the ungodly. It does not. In fact, God annihilated Sodom and Gomorrah as an EXAMPLE of what happens to the ungodly! (2 Peter 2:6, Jude 1:7) Nowhere in scripture does it indicate life of ANY kind for the wicked! The sincere reader will understand that the primary meaning of perish is to die, to lose life, to come to an end, or to be destroyed. When we read in (Heb 11:31) "By faith, the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not," we do not understand the word "perish" to signify living in agony or remorse, but that Rahab was saved from the fate which awaited the inhabitants of the city of Jericho. Let God be true, though it makes every man a liar. Let Scripture tell us what "perishing" in Heb 11:31 means: Destruction. The condition of being destroyed; demolition; annihilation. We must also understand that God uses EARTHLY descriptions of spiritual events that we can comprehend. As to any secondary meanings of perish, NONE express a continual process without an understood end. As to any secondary meanings of perish, NONE even remotely express the theory of endless conscience torment. That which causes things to perish are famine, God's wrath, smiting, warring nations, sickness, the sword, battle, fire, want of clothing, evil travail, and hunger. Things that perish are land, an eye, people, weapons of war, dung, beasts, names, expectations, riches, wisdom of wise men, nations, kingdoms, houses, body members, bottles, hair, meat, and money. PERISH is contrasted to prolonging days, days not failing, enduring, abiding, having no end, living, eternal life, everlasting life, being renewed, and remaining. PERISH is illustrated by dung, turning again to dust, consuming into smoke, melting like wax before a fire, melting away, a vine being burned by fire, breath leaving a body, years being shortened, a city being uninhabited, and bottles breaking. PERISH is paralleled with die, kill, destroyed, consumed, slain, being eat up, laid waste, go to nothing, be as nothing, vanish, withereth, cut off, turn again unto dust, deceased, fade away and utterly wasted. Scripture tells u that even Satan will be destroyed! (Eze 28:19) After the wicked are destroyed, they are remembered no more. (Ecclesiastes 9:5) There is no other understanding when this information is spiritually discerned. God means EXACTLY what He says in Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Life or death. Two sides of the coin. Nothing in-between.

Where do these fit in? :

"13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and each of them were judged according to their works.

14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."

--Rev20:13-15 [blb] regarding "the dead"... and what does "gave up [the dead]" mean, here?



[note two "punish/punished" separated by the "and after many days" in Isa24:21-22[23], parallel to Rev19:19/16:14-16/Rev20]

Isa24:21-22 [bsb] -

"In that day the LORD will punish the host of heaven above and the kings of the earth below.
They will be gathered together like prisoners in a pit. They will be confined to a dungeon and punished after many days."

I wonder what you will be saying about this a million years from now. Maybe even just 20 years.

Hello Kiltboy,

God's word says exactly opposite of what you have claimed above. Even the other words in the context "eternal, everlasting, no rest day or night, the smoke of their torment rising up forever and ever, etc," support the idea of eternal, conscious, punishment. The words "everlasting punishment" is defined as existing while being exposed to said punishment. To be clear, one cannot be punished if one is nonexistent.

Based on comparison of scripture, life and death are both states of eternal existence, with life being on-going existence in the kingdom of God and death being on-going existence in separation from God in the lake of fire. Consider the following scripture:

"And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

In the verse above, you have the same word describing the eternal existence for both the wicked and the righteous and therefore must convey the same meaning. To be clear, the word "aionios" translated as "eternal" cannot mean on-going existence for the righteous and extinction for the wicked. They have to mean the same thing for both. Therefore, since we know that eternal life is on-going existence for the righteous, then eternal punishment must be on-going existence in punishment. To be clear, eternal punishment would not be eternal if one was simply extinguished. The word aionios/eternal is not referring to a persons eternal nonexistence, but carries with it the idea of conscious awareness while being exposed to said punishment.

In Revelation 14, the consequences for those who worship the beast, his image or receive his mark are described as having no rest day or night and the smoke of their torment rising up forever and ever. Consequently, an individual would have to be existing in order to experience those conditions, for you cannot experience not having no rest day or night unless one is existing.

We also have the event of the rich man and Lazarus which the Lord revealed to us as a glimpse of what happens at the time of death for both the righteous and the wicked. The context shows that Lazarus and the rich man both died, yet their spirits were conscious and aware after they left their bodies, which was Sheol/Hades. Lazarus was in a place of comfort/paradise and the rich man was in torment in flame. Those who interpret this as a parable are distorting the true meaning of what Jesus is revealing to us. Those of no faith like the rich man, at the time of death their spirits depart and either automatically go or are taken by the angels to Sheol/Hades where they begin their punishment. In support of this, Revelation 20:11-15 reveals that at the end of the millennial kingdom, those who will have been in Sheol/Hades will be resurrected out of there and will stand before God at the great white throne judgment.

As I'm sure that you know, we have many celebrities and non celebrities who commit suicide daily, their thinking being that they can escape their troubles by killing themselves and becoming nonexistent. I can guarantee you that, they those who were not in Christ are now whishing that they were back in the land of the living wishing that they had their previous problems. Because when they committed suicide all they did was speed up the beginning of their punishment for their sins. And now, like the rich man, their is nothing that they can do to get out of that situation. The next stop for them is the great white throne judgment and then the lake of fire.

In addition, we also have the souls under the altar at the opening of the 5th seal, who are the souls of those who will have been killed during the first 3 1/2 years of that last seven year period. They having a conversation with the Lord and are given white robes to wear and told to wait a little longer until they are avenged.

We also have Moses and Elijah appearing with Christ on the mountain when Christ was transfigured into His glorified state and speaking with Him about His departure.

We have Jesus telling the man crucified next to him that he would be with Him in paradise that very same day. How is that possible when we know that both died that very same day? Jesus was speaking about their spirits being in paradise, i.e. the same place where Abraham and Lazarus were, which was in that place of comfort/paradise which was across from those in torment in flame.

By the way, the word "perish, destroy, destroyed, etc.," are translated from either "ollethros, apoleia or apollumi" neither of which infer "annihilation or extinction." For example"

olethros:

"He will inflict vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might, on the day He comes to be glorified in His saints and regarded with wonder by all who have believed, including you who have believed our testimony.

Strong's Concordance
olethros: destruction, death
Original Word: ὄλεθρος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: olethros
Phonetic Spelling: (ol'-eth-ros)
Definition: destruction, death
Usage: ruin, doom, destruction, death.

HELPS Word-studies
3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

apoleia:

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."

Strong's Concordance
apóleia: destruction, loss
Original Word: ἀπώλεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apóleia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-o'-li-a)
Definition: destruction, loss
Usage: destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin.

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 684 apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi).

684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being (Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11).

These words in "Red" translated as destroy, destroyed, everlasting punishment infer complete loss of well being, ruination and not annihilation or extinction.

It seems to me that the sufferings of hell are directly related to lost opportunity - wailing and gnashing of teeth! The lost will realise what they could have had, and will be faced with NEVER having it. It’s worse than losing a winning lotto ticket. This ‘NEVER’ is what gives an eternal dimension to the matter. If the saved live for ever, the lost, even if they stop existing, will still have lost heaven FOREVER. They are, in this sense, eternally lost.
Personally I don’t believe the lost live in eternal torment.
I hope it is clear to all that the imagery of hell is deliberately terrifying, to prevent complacency. People who imagine that God would put the lost in a literal fire and roast them forever must worship a strange God. Consider the description of Lazarus and the poor beggar. Lazarus says that he wants to cool his tongue. If he were in a literal fire, he wouldn’t be holding a conversation, he would be screaming in agony and utterly oblivious to the saintly beggar. This is a parable of a reality that is almost as shocking, namely that someone with so much to gain, loses it all.
It is the case that God has used terror tactics to get people into heaven. But actually, though they may be appalled by hell, it doesn’t lead to salvation. The only people really frightened of hell are christians because they alone believe in it. And hell is real. It is separation from God and man was made for God, so it is the loss of one's destiny.
The judgment will be an awesome experience for the lost (and saved) and certainly they will suffer more then they ever have before. So, the lost don’t get away with anything. They will be forced to see themselves as God sees them. It doesn’t get worse.
There are certain christians who think they can watch their own lost mothers suffering in hell and claim to see the righteousness and holiness of God in this. I think they have a few screws loose.

people are dying to know..........or has that already been said? oh well.

Whatsoever God does, it is EVERLASTING <--nothing added nor taken away from it and why does he do this...SO that MEN may fear before HIM.....

Why does eternal, everlasting and without end = temporary...............God must not be that bright to inspire words that don't really mean what they mean.....!!!

Nevertheless, eternal torment in flame is exactly what the word of God teaches. It's not a scare tactic, but the plain truth. When you turn the event of the rich man and Lazarus into a parable, you get rid of the truth. If you read it and interpret it in its plain literal meaning, then it means what it says.

And that is exactly what the context describes, for the rich man himself said, "I am in agony in this flame." So obviously, the rich man, though in agony, was able to have a conversation with Abraham in asking him to send Lazarus back to his father's house in order to warn his five brothers so that they would not come to the same place of torment.

Have you never read what Jesus said to His disciples and to all believers?

"Do not fear those who after they have killed the body, that is all that they can do. But I'll tell you who you ought to fear, fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in Geenna."

As believers in Christ, we know that God has the power to do this. However, those who believe in Christ have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God through faith in the shed blood of Christ.

"And hell is real. It is separation from God and man was made for God, so it is the loss of one's destiny."

Your are correct, hell is real and those who end up in it will be conscious and aware, not annihilated. You obviously ignored the definitions of the words translated as destroy, destroyed and perish. As I said, they do not infer annihilation or extinction, but complete loss of well being while in an existing state, complete ruination.

According to yours and others interpretation of eternal punishment, those celebrities and common people who have committed suicide for the purpose of wanting to become nonexistent, would be getting their wish. Therefore, by them being annihilated by God, they would be getting exactly what they wanted in the first place.

The punishment is sever and eternal, because all sin is against a Holy, Righteous and eternal God. As I said previously, for those who worship the beast, his image and receive his mark, it is said that the smoke of their torment will rise up forever and ever and they will have no rest day or night. One would have to be existing in order to experience the smoke of their torment rising up forever and ever. If an individual were completely burned up as soon as they were thrown into the lake of fire, then there would be no smoke of their torment because they would no longer exist. Yet the scripture says that their torment is forever and ever which would require one to be conscious and aware. You can't experience said torment forever and ever if you don't exist. In addition, it states that they will have no rest day or night. Once again, one would have to be existing in order to experience having no rest day or night.

All that you are doing, like so many others, is spreading the lies of Satan with these teachings. You have become his foot soldier.

Christians are not referred to in scripture as "dead", and host of heaven may refer to rebellious angels. well it COULD be!

Right. I believe this context is referring to "the [unsaved] dead" of all times. So... they've been "dead," and now (in this context) their ultimate "judgment" (the final carrying out of the sentence).

Right, so Isaiah 24:21-22[23]/Rev19:19/16:14-16 is set at the time surrounding Christ's Second Coming to the earth, and then the [v.22] "and after many days" refers [being the second reference to "punish"] to the final carrying out of the sentence (at the same time frame that "the dead [/unsaved]" are "gave up [the dead]" Rev20; i.e. at the GWTj). Meaning, some of these people have already been "dead" (physically dead), and now, in this Rev20 context, are receiving the final carrying out of the sentence AFTER THEY'VE BEEN DEAD.


[John 5:29 "resurrection of judgment"...]

SIGH====

I truly love my Lord, but these Calvinists and wannabee Calvinists . . . not so much. I don't consider them my enemies, only God's -- and He is longsuffering. I wonder just how much restraint is upon God not to just reach down and squish these preachers of another gospel. Well, He doesn't have to. They are condemned already and judgment approaches.

No you don’t! That’s the point about a parable. It uses a set of images to reveal a deeper spiritual truth. The flames and the eternal suffering are the images, the truth is the separation from God and the loss of eternal life. This is such a desperately horrible possibility that the best way of conveying it is by images of eternal torment. There is no need to believe the fire is a literal fire anymore than the kingdom of God is a literal mustard seed.

This is ridiculous and shows very clearly the inherent weakness of your position. If you are going to be literal, you have to stick with it. No one on fire, can have a rational conversation. Your refusal to accept this demonstrates that you have no clue what you are talking about. It’s a parable, see, not a description of an actual event. It is illustrative of the irreversible nature of the decisions we make, or don’t make, on the earth.

To fear God is the beginning of wisdom and God certainly will separate the sheep from the goats and shut the goats out of his presence forever. Hell is that state. It is the destruction of the very soul of this person. The end of a destiny that could have lasted for eternity. It is an eternal condition whether or not the lost exist and are conscious or not.

No it would not! The lost are lost for all eternity whether they exist or not.
As for the words Kiltboy defines in his post, your interpretation, a complete loss of well-being that precludes annihilation is simply that - your interpretation.
I am sure you think you are defending God’s word and that it is essential to read apocalyptic texts and parables as literal truths, but essentially this is a matter of interpretation.
Should we take these warnings of eternal torment seriously? Yes. Do we have to insist that the lost are literally tortured day and night? No.
You seem to be genuinely concerned that the lost will not suffer enough. You seem to like the idea that others will suffer, but God doesn’t want anyone to perish, but all to come to repentance. He seems somewhat kinder than you.

Someone would make a killing if they knew when the end was coming......selling asbestos clothing. "Course, you'd be all dressed up and no place to go.........

the earth will bestroyed by INTENSE HEAT..........so says Peter....burned up 2 Peter 3, verses 10 and 12

AND yet God commanded Joshua to destroy how many cities and KILL everything in them including the children............

Hello Scrobulous,

Yes, I do! If people would drop that adopted teaching of the rich man and Lazarus being a parable and just read it at face value, then they would understand it in its plain meaning.


These are not images, but an event which actually took place which the Lord is relating to the reader. Parables use symbolism to represent what is literal. However, the rich man and Lazarus event uses the real names of Abraham, Lazarus, Moses and mentions the prophets, his father and five brothers, as well as the literal location of Hades.

You are correct in that part of the punishment is being separated from God and that separation is said to be in the lake of fire. The lake of fire is not symbolic but will be literal flames and heat. The only reason that you are claiming that the torment in flame is symbolic is by your own definition. To be clear, you are just changing the meaning of what is meant to be literal.

I'll stick with what scripture says over you are anyone else. Because if you read these scriptures in the literal sense, then they mean what they say. No where in scripture is it said or hinted at, that eternal punishment infers nonexistence. As I continue to bring to everyone's attention, in order to have "no rest day or night," in order for "the smoke of their torment to ascent up forever and ever," one must be existing in order to experience that state of punishment, period.

The judgment of the sheep and the goats is a judgment of those righteous and wicked who will have made it through the time of God's wrath alive. The sheep will go into eternal life and the wicked will be cast into the lake of fire. The church however, will have already been judged several years prior to that judgment at the Bema Seat of Christ for rewards or loss of rewards and not for sin.

Everyone who comes into the world exists forever, with both the righteous and the wicked receiving resurrected bodies. Those whose names have been written in the book of life will exist forever in the joy of the Lord in their resurrected bodies. In opposition, the unfaithful will exist forever in separation apart from God in their resurrected bodies - (Acts 24:15, Rev.20:11-15). Both life and death are states of eternal existence which is determined by and individuals state of being with God.

Life = Eternal existence in the kingdom of God

Death = Eternal existence in absence from God in the lake of fire, conscious and aware.

Everyone who comes into the world exists forever. Both life and death are states of eternal existence which is determined by and individuals state of being with God.

Really?! Then you just plainly didn't read the definition of the Greek words that I provided which specifically say that those words do not infer annihilation or extinction. Pay attention! Here is the definition of those words again. So, take a look at what I have highlighted in red and underlined below:

Strong's Concordance
olethros: destruction, death
Original Word: ὄλεθρος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: olethros
Phonetic Spelling: (ol'-eth-ros)
Definition: destruction, death
Usage: ruin, doom, destruction, death.

HELPS Word-studies
3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

apoleia:

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."

Strong's Concordance
apóleia: destruction, loss
Original Word: ἀπώλεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apóleia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-o'-li-a)
Definition: destruction, loss
Usage: destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin.

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 684 apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi).

684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being (Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11).

So, since you can read it for yourself that the words do not imply annihilation or extinction, how can it be my own interpretation?

Correct! And from the comparing of scriptures and cross-referencing, the word of God is clear that the proper interpretation is that death is a state of eternal existence in separation from God. No where does scripture ever infer that punishment in separation from God in the lake of fire as being temporary. It only becomes that when people ignore the literal, plain meaning and apply a symbolic or allegorical meaning to it and thereby distorting the truth.

Again, the scripture is literal and those who worship the beast, his image and receive his mark will suffer etnernal, on-going, conscious existence in separation from God in the lake of fire. Here is the scripture below:

"And a third angel followed them, calling out in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

By the way, in order for the wicked to be tormented in fire and sulfu in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb, that individual would have to be conscious and aware. The word "Tormented in fire and sulfur" would infer on-going punsishment.

First, your assumption about me is false, as I am not looking forward to anyone suffering. My concern is for the truth and accuracy of God's word, regardless of the topic. I'm speaking the truth of God's word, from His word. And you are correct in that, God does not want anyone to perish, but they will if they don't believe in His Son.

You and others are just carrying out Satan's lie regarding this Biblical topic and that because you have adopted the teachings of men. However, some day you will find out that what I am teaching and contending with you about is the truth.

Parables are all 'a certain man' . . . the Rich and Lazarus were specific individuals. Some believe that Lazarus was the Lazarus that Jesus called from the grave that died again later, and the rich man was the rich young ruler that questioned Jesus about the Law.

No thanks on your view......the verbiage is clear......smoke of their torment for ever and ever is clear..........and using human reasoning to put God in a box while disregarding-->MY ways are SO much HIGHER than YOUR ways and MY thoughts than your THOUGHTS seems idiotic at best........