Hardshell & Primitive Baptist "Conditional Time Salvation" Warning

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Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#341
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
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#341
ForestGreenCook said:
I agree that no one is justified by the old law, and also that the regenerated man lives by faith, but Christ made those that he died for just. God looks upon them as holy and without blame. Man's faith is not the cause of his eternal salvation.
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Jesus did indeed die to make His people justified in the sight of God. However, that is done by faith, and faith comes from hearing the word of God. When Jesus died and rose again, His elect remained unregenerate until the time they hear/heard the gospel. You and I were not born justified, but were born dead in Adam. It was when the gospel of our salvation was heard by us, that God used that very gospel to quicken us, and in this quickening, faith and repentance are exercised, and we are saved.
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#342
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
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#342
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
Jesus did indeed die to make His people justified in the sight of God. However, that is done by faith, and faith comes from hearing the word of God. When Jesus died and rose again, His elect remained unregenerate until the time they hear/heard the gospel. You and I were not born justified, but were born dead in Adam. It was when the gospel of our salvation was heard by us, that God used that very gospel to quicken us, and in this quickening, faith and repentance are exercised, and we are saved.
Click to expand...
Exactly.

"In time" we were under God's wrath, that is in reference to his elect. "In time" we were placed in Christ via the Gospel, Ephesians 1 and this is eternal salvation through the Gospel. It is the washing of regeneration; Titus 3:5 which took place through the Gospel, God's means to save his elect; 1 Corinthians 1:21 which is unto eternal life; Acts 11:18; 2 Timothy 2:8-10.

Notice Titus 3:5 says this is not due to works of righteousness yet the PB's teach their gospel is achieved through works granting temporary deliverance. But that dog won't hunt, and there is a glaring reason why this temporary deliverance is untrue: There are many many martyrs who upon believing the Gospel were put to death, burned at the stake, thrown in prison, beaten to death, put out on the streets, starved to death among many other horrendous types of death given them due to their belief.

Furthermore the Epistles are expositions on the Gospel, expounding it's effect upon those in Christ, and upon those outside of Christ who are not saved and of their eternal damnation for rejection of Christ and the Gospel. So even the antithesis shows the eternal consequences of not believing the Gospel in contrast to this in Christ through the Gospel.

Yet the PB wants to remove this aspect of eternal life through the Gospel from its message. They have to do this in order to support their ongoing "anti-means" campaign. This is the sole reason they must mitigate and change its message; to support their teaching. They've distorted God's word to accommodate them and their message.

No apostle nor any person throughout the history of the church support their claims, it is an aberration and a false gospel. Highly deceptive to the unlearned and appealing to the flesh for certain, but nonetheless false.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#343
Jul 8, 2018
8,333
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#343
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
What I am saying is faith is a fruit of the Spirit, on this we both agree. However, faith comes via the word of God, as Romans 10:17 clearly states. Those who have died, are dying now, and will die later not hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ, die in an unregenerate state, seeing that faith comes by the word, and if they never heard the word, they never had faith. No faith means no regeneration, nor regeneration means no salvation.
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I agree with everything in your post. Also, regeneration comes before believing in spiritual things, repenting, confessing, accepting Christ etc. regeneration is by God's grace, without the help of man.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#344
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
#344
ForestGreenCook said:
I agree with everything in your post. Also, regeneration comes before believing in spiritual things, repenting, confessing, accepting Christ etc. regeneration is by God's grace, without the help of man.
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I see them as happening at the same time my friend.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#345
Jul 8, 2018
8,333
1,187
113
#345
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
Jesus did indeed die to make His people justified in the sight of God. However, that is done by faith, and faith comes from hearing the word of God. When Jesus died and rose again, His elect remained unregenerate until the time they hear/heard the gospel. You and I were not born justified, but were born dead in Adam. It was when the gospel of our salvation was heard by us, that God used that very gospel to quicken us, and in this quickening, faith and repentance are exercised, and we are saved.
Click to expand...
Hearing and believing the gospel follows regeneration. In Eph 2:5 when we were regenerated, we were "YET" dead in sins, dead spiritually, dead in Adam. The natural man cannot understand the gospel, it is foolishness to him (1 Cor 2:14).
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#346
Jul 8, 2018
8,333
1,187
113
#346
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
I see them as happening at the same time my friend.
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I agree with them happening at the same time, but not before. I also believe at the time of our regeneration we receive the ability to began to understand spiritual things and our faith grows gradually as we are revealed the truths of the gospel.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#347
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
#347
ForestGreenCook said:
Hearing and believing the gospel follows regeneration. In Eph 2:5 when we were regenerated, we were "YET" dead in sins, dead spiritually, dead in Adam. The natural man cannot understand the gospel, it is foolishness to him (1 Cor 2:14).
Click to expand...
God uses the gospel to bring someone dead in Adam to life. God uses the gospel to show them what God did for them in Christ. It is as the gospel is being presented to them, God quickens them.
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#348
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
#348
ForestGreenCook said:
Hearing and believing the gospel follows regeneration. In Eph 2:5 when we were regenerated, we were "YET" dead in sins, dead spiritually, dead in Adam. The natural man cannot understand the gospel, it is foolishness to him (1 Cor 2:14).
Click to expand...
Well of course, there was no other logical way to regenerate us bro, it had to be while dead in sin, note Acts 16:17. It is all his work and this happened upon the hearing of the Gospel, Ephesians 1 being the context of Ephesians 2:5. You are divorcing the text from context to arrive at your conclusions.

You realize that context rules and directs proper interpretation, not our presuppositions, correct?

Paul always writes his epistles this way, describing the time of their belief or that they believed, then elaboration on these truths, then prescribing how a believer should then live coupled with refutations of false doctrine &c.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#349
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
#349
ForestGreenCook said:
I agree with them happening at the same time, but not before. I also believe at the time of our regeneration we receive the ability to began to understand spiritual things and our faith grows gradually as we are revealed the truths of the gospel.
Click to expand...
Not one person who has never heard and/or read the word of God is regenerate. That is why I say they happen simultaneously.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#350
Jul 8, 2018
8,333
1,187
113
#350
preacher4truth said:
Exactly.

"In time" we were under God's wrath, that is in reference to his elect. "In time" we were placed in Christ via the Gospel, Ephesians 1 and this is eternal salvation through the Gospel. It is the washing of regeneration; Titus 3:5 which took place through the Gospel, God's means to save his elect; 1 Corinthians 1:21 which is unto eternal life; Acts 11:18; 2 Timothy 2:8-10.

Notice Titus 3:5 says this is not due to works of righteousness yet the PB's teach their gospel is achieved through works granting temporary deliverance. But that dog won't hunt, and there is a glaring reason why this temporary deliverance is untrue: There are many many martyrs who upon believing the Gospel were put to death, burned at the stake, thrown in prison, beaten to death, put out on the streets, starved to death among many other horrendous types of death given them due to their belief.

Furthermore the Epistles are expositions on the Gospel, expounding it's effect upon those in Christ, and upon those outside of Christ who are not saved and of their eternal damnation for rejection of Christ and the Gospel. So even the antithesis shows the eternal consequences of not believing the Gospel in contrast to this in Christ through the Gospel.

Yet the PB wants to remove this aspect of eternal life through the Gospel from its message. They have to do this in order to support their ongoing "anti-means" campaign. This is the sole reason they must mitigate and change its message; to support their teaching. They've distorted God's word to accommodate them and their message.

No apostle nor any person throughout the history of the church support their claims, it is an aberration and a false gospel. Highly deceptive to the unlearned and appealing to the flesh for certain, but nonetheless false.
Click to expand...
In no way is the gospel the cause of your eternal salvation. Jesus said, "in the gospel ye [THINK] you have eternal life, but they are the words that speak of me. You are given the ability to understand the gospel in regeneration.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#351
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
#351
ForestGreenCook said:
In no way is the gospel the cause of your eternal salvation. Jesus said, "in the gospel ye [THINK] you have eternal life, but they are the words that speak of me. You are given the ability to understand the gospel in regeneration.
Click to expand...
There is only ONE salvation, and it IS eternal my friend.
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#352
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
#352
ForestGreenCook said:
In no way is the gospel the cause of your eternal salvation. Jesus said, "in the gospel ye [THINK] you have eternal life, but they are the words that speak of me. You are given the ability to understand the gospel in regeneration.
Click to expand...
No, sorry, not exactly true and you've distorted some words here.

You don't believe the Scripture bro unless they bow to your interpretation based upon your anti-means error. You all have completely reinterpreted Scripture off of that one grievous error.

That and you've misquoted my LORD. That is not what he said.

But you misquote me as well, and others. But misquoting Christ, that is another issue but follows status quo for you.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#353
Jul 8, 2018
8,333
1,187
113
#353
preacher4truth said:
Well of course, there was no other logical way to regenerate us bro, it had to be while dead in sin, note Acts 16:17. It is all his work and this happened upon the hearing of the Gospel, Ephesians 1 being the context of Ephesians 2:5. You are divorcing the text from context to arrive at your conclusions.

You realize that context rules and directs proper interpretation, not our presuppositions, correct?

Paul always writes his epistles this way, describing the time of their belief or that they believed, then elaboration on these truths, then prescribing how a believer should then live coupled with refutations of false doctrine &c.
Click to expand...
You are saying regeneration happened UPON hearing the gospel, making hearing the gospel a prerequisite to regeneration. Let's see, how do you put it! "that dog want fly", or something to that nature. A knowledge of the gospel (by the scriptures) says it saves (delivers) you. That is true, but it only delivers you here in time. Saved = delivered, according to the Greek.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#355
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
#355
ForestGreenCook said:
You are saying regeneration happened UPON hearing the gospel, making hearing the gospel a prerequisite to regeneration. Let's see, how do you put it! "that dog want fly", or something to that nature. A knowledge of the gospel (by the scriptures) says it saves (delivers) you. That is true, but it only delivers you here in time. Saved = delivered, according to the Greek.
Click to expand...
From Ephesians 1...


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

How are we made to know the mystery of His will? By His word. How are we sealed with the Spirit? By His word. Our salvation comes by God, but via His word.
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#356
Dec 28, 2016
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#356
Note John 5:40, preceding FGC's misquotation of John 5:39 which shows he continually takes Scripture out of context:

"...yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life."

Contextually that life is eternal due to 5:39 and the context. Jesus is the logos by the way, the living word of God.

In other words regeneration didn't happen mystically outside of the word preached. These rejected Christ, his teachings, his Gospel in which if they received it they would have eternal life as do all the unregenerate.

Note, none of us are able to come unless John 6:65 takes place. Those who do come to him were granted this by the Father and are granted eternal life in the Son. That is God's means.

Again, God has always used means.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#357
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
#357
ForestGreenCook said:
You are saying regeneration happened UPON hearing the gospel, making hearing the gospel a prerequisite to regeneration. Let's see, how do you put it! "that dog want fly", or something to that nature. A knowledge of the gospel (by the scriptures) says it saves (delivers) you. That is true, but it only delivers you here in time. Saved = delivered, according to the Greek.
Click to expand...
God made it a prerequisite, not us, my friend.
 
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