Not By Works

Depends on your understanding of the scripture. The fire mentioned was burning trash which was consuming the trash. So does the fire of hell consume the unsaved or allow them to live forever?

in these 4 verses are all the answers to the questions studydude thinks no one is willing to address.
he's been putting this off for a dozen pages or so -- sorry; there is more than one simultaneous conversation going on.

but if you understand the depth of Matthew 17:24-27, including its greater sequential placement in ch.17-18 and the other scriptures tied to these 4 verses, i think you will see how it belongs, profoundly so, in the 'not by works' thread and is relevant to that larger topic as an whole.

not a red herring - i think; tbh i am not sure exactly what kind of fish are in the sea of Galilee
but not a 'distraction' -- it's a crux point. i'm not trying to distract - it really does contain what dude has been saying for 50 pages that we have been neglecting to explain ((not as though no one has given him explanations)). if he can interpret it, he'll understand why i quoted it to him, and i firmly believe that people better internalize truths that they arrive at by searching them out for themselves, though they are guided, than they do internalize things that someone simply tells them, and they memorize. i really want dude to comprehend this so i'm not trying to "preach" - plus i know he will immediately reject anything i try to "teach" him on principle; he believes he is my teacher/inquisitor/judge and without hesitation or even pause to hear, disagrees with any word i say. therefore i'm only pointing him to the passage and urging him to "study" it, as this is what he proclaims he has talent for.
if he is willing to let the Spirit teach him the meaning of this passage - because he certainly won't let any other believer teach it to him - perhaps he will be enlightened, and perhaps there will be some peace among brothers as he comes to see.

which is jut to explain to you, Endo, why i've been prodding him about it while he ducks it, and why i haven't been exegeting it myself. perhaps i will soon start a thread for the passage, so people more responsive can talk about it, but for now, i believe i should keep encouraging him to do the "good work" of searching out the person and work of God in the meaning of this scripture.

sorry to have by this led you to think i had any kind of nefarious purpose!

carry on. . .

Not at all, but I do consider the context and the fact that Jesus was born, lived and died under the LAW WHICH RATIFIED THE NEW COVENANT....and I also CONSIDER THE FACT THAT NO LAW KEEPING OR COMMANDMENT KEEPING EARNED one person salvation and or eternal life...THEREFORE we conclude that a man is JUSTIFIED "BEFORE GOD" BY FAITH WITHOUT THE DEEDS/WORKS OF THE LAW.....

and I fully expect you to reject the truth of what I just said!

You are the one rejecting what the Lord Jesus clearly stateď. And since Jesus is the mediator of the NEW COVENANT, your rejection of what He clearly stated proves your deception that contradicts scriptures.

This is the covenant I will make with the hovuse of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I WILL PUT MY LAWS in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.” By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

If God's laws were placed in their minds and written in their hearts, does scriptures tell us to just believe them and not OBEY them?

...Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does. James 1:22-25

.. He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you HYPOCRITES; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.” (see also Isaiah 5:20-24 & ecclessiastes 12:13-14)

Who would you believe when you inquire about how to get ETERNAL LIFE, man made doctrines or Jesus whom God COMMANDED us to listen to? (Matthew 17:6)

...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrathcomes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:6-7

Arguemore...like I said...and could care less....reject the truth I posted.....when you make the "many group" in that day....I won't need to say told you so....and all the begging and pleading will equate to less than nothing....good luck with your vanilla twist works and self saving rigmarole....!!

I read them and don't understand the linkage to the point of the NOT BY WORKS title of the thread. It was about the reasonablness of the tax. How does that relate to saved by grace and not by works.

Matthew 10:28 (ESV)
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.


That word DESTROY, means TOTALLY CONSUMED BY FIRE.

And I have met people, that say "That is not so bad, a momentary BURNING, followed by NOTHINGNESS."


THINK AGAIN, IT SAYS HELL IS FOREVER, and the unsaved HUMAN SPIRIT WILL BE THEIR FOR ETERNITY.

THAT IS EXACTLY WHY THE STORY OF LAZARUS AND THE RICH MAN, IS NOT A PARABLE, IT IS REALITY. The Human Spirit DEPARTS and IS INSTANTLY IN A BURNING TORMENT.


Psalm 146:4 (NIV)
4 When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.

...As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:26

...teaching them to OBEY WHATEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU… Matthew 28:18-20

...And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and TO LOVE one another as he commanded us.1 John 3:23

...And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love. 2 John 1:6

...For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ NOT ONLY TO BELIEVE ON HIM, but also to suffer for him, Philippians 1:29


Does a person who teaches obedience to God causes another person to sin by doing so?

Would any person who don't have FAITH in God teach obedience to God? Or would the deceiver be TEACHING obedience to God as a deception? Would he not rather teach DISOBEDIENCE in His attempt to deceive the believers?

Is it not those who condemn those who teach obedience to God who DOES NOT HAVE FAITH in God and CAUSES A PERSON TO SIN?

Is it not that sin is the transgression of the law?(1 john 3:4)

Is it obedience to God to break the law?

Who then causes another person to sin?

...At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3 And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5 “And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6 But IF ANYONE CAUSES ONE OF THESE LITTLE ONES WHO “BELIEVE” IN ME TO SIN, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

7 “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but WOE TO THE MAN THROUGH WHOM THEY COME FROM! 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be THROWN INTO ETERNAL FIRE. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be THROWN INTO THE FIRE OF HELL. matthew 18:1-9

...We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4 The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. 1 john 2:3-6

...But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things GOD'S WRATH COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT. ephesians 5:6

Blah blah blah....James does not teach a wotks based salvation...no scripture teaches a works based salvation regardless of how you peddle it and or twist it

I thought you have to give a real Facts not just a mere opinions but I really sense you’re just giving me information base on your own idea not even a scriptural references to validate any claim. Not according to a 16th ce. Dictionary that I gave the last time. I think, you are not ready yet with the thing of Bible translation. What “surrender” you are trying to draw is something about “Lordship Salvation” the thing creeping in today’s churches because of what Vines watered down definition of the Greek pisteou.
Lordship of Christ in our lives/surrender is we need after salvation. We need to obey God and his commands. It’s a matter of entrusting ourselves for service.

Your complete “surrender” fits the word “control” and it has nothing to do with your kind of analogy. Staff you say, but staff are use in the Old Testament to signify “power”. As seen in Psalms 23, it is to illustrate his tender care, protection, guidance, and comfort over all of his people, particularly all those who are dwelling in the “house of the Lord.” We just don’t “surrender” to the staff, we just cling to the staff. You are indeed so far away.

Not sure about Greek verbal tenses even Scholars of high degree have differing views on the verbal tenses. So you want to give me a lesson where scholars of high degree don’t agree with each other? God forbid!

As I see it, seems are about to miss things and messed up things when it is very clear in the Bible that the Greek pisteou has been translated in the English Bible as “believe” concerning salvation with the exception of a few for entrusting or for a service. And this is the one major problem you have misunderstanding translation thus giving way to heretical teaching of faith+ works= salvation perhaps in the name of “Lordship Salvation”, a process…

To make story short, surrender fall short in God’s standard of how to be saved.

Keep believing on man made doctrines while rejecting God's Word. Here's what Jesus said:

...He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

“Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.Matthew 12:33-37

...I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.
47 “As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. 49 For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. 50 I know that his command leads to eternal life.So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.” John 12:46-50

Keep believing on man made doctrines while rejecting God's Word. Here's what Jesus said:

...He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

“Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.Matthew 12:33-37

...I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.
47 “As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. 49 For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. 50 I know that his command leads to eternal life.So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.” John 12:46-50

Like I said, and when one reads your drivel all we see is blah blah blah...

NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE, BUT ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HAS HE SAVED US....

UNLESS YOU ARE ARGUEMORE....then you save yourself by some anti biblical working for drivel.....!!

Go walk the talk and stop rejecting scriptures.

...WE KNOW THAT WE HAVE COME TO KNOW HIM IF WE OBEY HIS COMMANDS. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a LIAR, and THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know WE ARE IN HIM: Whoever CLAIMS to live in him MUST WALK as Jesus did.

...They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good. Titus 1:16

My bad , I should of posted the whole Scripture , I thought you would of understood what I meant , that is why I said I agree with Ephesians 2;8 to correct what I missed out . do you see that now...

All I've submitted to you is the most important word concerning us in the scriptures , " pisteuo ", and the Two best Greek dictionarys definition of pisteuo , all FACTS . and all I'm giving you is my "opinion." ????

You then first misrepresent me by saying those are just my opinions and go on to build a misrepresentation of me according to you .

You've been warned , next !

Bumped for clarification on this topic .

I have spent the last few days reviewing your religious beliefs as defined by your posts. Since you will just deflect and ignore the scriptures I post and the understanding I have, I decided to just concentrate on your preaching and why we disagree so much. If I use your own words then you can't say I slander you.

It seems you believe that God never gave His Children the knowledge of sin until Mt. Sinai. Yet He killed thousands of folks for "sinning" before that. This would be an unjust God if this were true. Let's look at scripture.

Your words;



I won't even address the foolishness of your reference to satan not sinning until Sinai. How does one even begin on that belief.

And I won't spend much time on Paul's statement: Rom. 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.


Since I believe in the WORD of God I believe that God instructed His Children as any good Father. And His instruction to "not hate our brother in our heart" was one of the first commandments revealed to us in the examples He had written for our admonition. I know this because Jesus inspired John to tell me in His Word.

1 John 3:
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (Not the Commandments of God as many imply)

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, (Lawless) and his brother's righteous. (lawful)

So according to John, God starts defining sin (Law by your definition) from the very beginning. Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin (Transgression of God's Laws) lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

So we know Cain and Abel had God's law (knowledge of sin) regarding "love our neighbor", and Cain lied about killing his brother, so we know he understood that law as well. So if Love thy neighbor as thyself was at the very beginning, weren't the rest of God's instructions on how to Love Him, and Love each other there as well? James seemed to think so.

But where is Levi and the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for remission of sins that the Jews were pushing? Or do you believe they were trying to get the Galatians to "Love God and Love your brother" as being defined by God in the very beginning.

Gen. 18:
17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

19 For I know him, (So Abraham didn't "practice Lawlessness" it seems)

that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

But wait, you preach there was no "Way" of the Lord before Moses to teach his children? Where in scriptures is it recorded that God defined and gave Abraham a "way"? And yet Abraham not only "had" the Way of the Lord, but kept it and God knew he would teach it to his children. But where is Levi and the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for remission of sins?

Gen. 26:
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

But you preach God didn't give His Laws until Moses. Are you preaching that Abraham didn't know to "love his brother"? Not to "murder folks". Are these not part of God's Way, part of His "Whole Law"?

But where is Levi? Where is the Levitical Priesthood "Works of the Law" for remission of sins?

According to Paul it was "ADDED" 430 years later because of transgressions "Till the Seed should come."

This is the "LAW" that was a shadow of the Christ's Sacrifice and High Priesthood which was to come. This was the Law that cleansed folks of their unrighteousness that was to lead them to Christ. This is the Law that was "ADDED" to God's Good, holy, and just Laws, until the seed should come.

This is the Covenant God made with Abraham's Children because of "Transgression of His Covenant with Abraham." This is the Covenant that the Word of God which became Flesh changed. "In that day" No more Levite Priests to "administer God's Word", no more "Works of the LAW" for remission of sins. This is the "LAW" that the Jews were bewitching the Galatians with.

Ex. 2:
23 And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage.
24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
25 And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God had respect unto them.

So if you have the falsehood "God didn't give His Law until Moses" as part of your foundation, everything you build on that foundation is false as well. This is why Jesus said "WE LIVE BY" Every Word of God. and again; A little leaven, leavens the whole lump.

Warning , this thread is built on a false premise , that Grace and Faith are the same thing . Could be an intentional misrepresentation of God's ways .