Not By Works

Did I say they were wolves or that they were wrong about everything? You quote the ECF as if they were infallible. The ultimate criterion is the Word of God. Even in apostolic times, errors quickly spread among churches.

Roman Catholics love to point out that there was a general consensus among the church fathers that water baptism (including infant baptism) was the instrument of regeneration and washing away of sin. That settles the question for Roman Catholics, who are amazed that Evangelical Christians have the audacity to disagree with the Church Fathers on this matter. It may come as a surprise that Roman Catholics too do not follow the practice of the church fathers in the administration of baptism.

For example it was common practice that the candidate was immersed three times, whereas the modern Catholic rite consists of pouring water on the head. Before baptism, the candidate was anointed with "oil of exorcism" while the presbyter prayed, "Let all spirits flee far away from you." Apart from the fact that there is no scriptural warrant for this anointing, they were also mistaken in their belief that this oil served for the remission of sins even before baptism:

"Now this is blessed by the high priest for the remission of sins, and the first preparation for baptism. For he calls thus upon the unbegotten God, the Father of Christ, the King of all sensible and intelligible natures, that He would sanctify the oil in the name of the Lord Jesus, and impart to it spiritual grace and efficacious strength, the remission of sins, and the first preparation for the confession of baptism, that so the candidate for baptism, when he is anointed may be freed from all ungodliness, and may become worthy of initiation, according to the command of the Only-begotten." (Apostolic Constitutions, XLII)

During baptism, the candidates had to remove their clothing and stand naked in the water. The newly baptized was not allowed to take a bath for a whole week. Now I don't feel obliged to follow the fathers in their unscriptural inventions, changing the simple ordinance of Christ into a superstition, not to mention their disregard for public decency. (See Tertullian, The Crown; St Hippolytus of Rome, The Apostolic Tradition). These are the same people who insisted on baptismal regeneration.

I read an article in "The Ex-Catholic Journal" that says "some of the writings attributed to the Church Fathers have been found to be forgeries, while others have been taken out of context. Doctrines such as the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the papacy, purgatory and transubstantiation are alleged to be supported in these early writings." I hear Roman Catholics quote the Church Fathers a lot in an effort to support their doctrines. That is a red flag for me. The article went on to say that "most of the copies of copies of copies of the Church Fathers that we possess today were copied during the time that the Roman Catholic church controlled the flow of literature in Europe." That would explain a lot! We do not have any original copies of their writings, only copies of copies of copies which were copied and preserved by the Roman Catholic church. - https://xcjournal.org/the-errors-of-catholicism/church-fathers/

God promised to preserve His Word, found in the Bible, but not these early writings of the Church Fathers. We can fully trust in God's infallible Word, but not the fallible writings of men.

How would they scare me? THEY SUPPORT MY VIEW!!

Your Funny

Maybe they judge what you say?

Your right, It was not you who hung on the cross. So why do you not place your faith on that moment, and not on how well You may or may not be able to be obedient? And base your salvation on that?

Bro

I cant send you a PM.

So I will try to get you here: You wrote a book on eschatology, and I cant remember where to find it. Could you show it to me again? Or you can just answer my question here: Do you believe in the millennium we will be having a return to animal sacrifices, circumcision, law of Moses, etc? Yay or nay?

(PS dont mean to derail this thread, just asking ONE yes or no question from brother dcon here since I cant PM him)

Hi Fran, your a smart cookie, so do the smart girl thing and believe in the blood atonement of Jesus Christ alone for your salvation; we are saved by grace through faith, "Not By Works"

Yes heaven is a wonderful reward for Christians, just think, no more tears; no more death; streets of gold; and we will all sing praises to God and worship and serve Him forever and ever; we cannot possibly know all of the wonderful things that God has prepared for those of us who love Him.

You know that this is the issue here, "Our Soteriology" the Doctrine of Salvation or "how is a person saved." "Are we saved by "grace alone", or by, "grace plus works." When you add your wonderful works to Gods grace for your "Eternal Salvation", (not for rewards), then you have just joined the "Plentiful Group", that dcontroveral mentions frequently, and Jesus will say to you; "I never new you."

When God freely saves us "By Grace Alone", He then puts us on the train "Bound for Glory." What we do while we are that train is our free choosing and when we reach that wonderful place over on heavens shores we will be rewarded accordingly for our labors at the "Bema Seat" or the "judgement seat of Christ."

Fran do not be like a child who plays with her food because she does not like the taste, just "obey" your parents and eat your "carrots and peas", please.....

1Peter1:3-5 "Our heavenly Inheritance"
3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he gave us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4) that is, into an inheritance imperishable, undefiled, and unfading. It is reserved in heaven for you, 5) who by God’s power are protected through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

2Corinthians5:10 - "The Bema Seat of Christ"
10) "For we must all appear before the 'judgment seat of Christ', (Bema seat), so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."

if anyone thinks this means 'don't follow Him' they're insane

27 This is the man about whom it is written, 'See, I am sending my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'

28 I tell you, no one has ever been born who is greater than John. Yet even the least important person in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

29 By having been baptized with John's baptism, all the people who listened, including the tax collectors, a
27 This is the man about whom it is written, 'See, I am sending my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'

28 I tell you, no one has ever been born who is greater than John. Yet even the least important person in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

29 By having been baptized with John's baptism, all the people who listened, including the tax collectors, acknowledged God's justice.

30 But the Pharisees and the experts in the Law rejected God's plan for themselves by refusing to be baptized by John.

31 Jesus continued, "To what may I compare the people living today?

32 They are like little children who sit in the marketplace and shout to each other, 'A wedding song we played for you, the dance you simply scorned. A woeful dirge we chanted, too, but then you did not mourn.'

33 Because John the Baptist has come neither eating bread nor drinking wine, yet you say, 'He has a demon!'
34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Look! He's a glutton and a drunk, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'

35 Wisdom is vindicated by all her children."

cknowledged God's justice.

30 But the Pharisees and the experts in the Law rejected God's plan for themselves by refusing to be baptized by John.

31 Jesus continued, "To what may I compare the people living today?

32 They are like little children who sit in the marketplace and shout to each other, 'A wedding song we played for you, the dance you simply scorned. A woeful dirge we chanted, too, but then you did not mourn.'

33 Because John the Baptist has come neither eating bread nor drinking wine, yet you say, 'He has a demon!'

34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Look! He's a glutton and a drunk, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'

35 Wisdom is vindicated by all her children."


In this part of the chapter of Luke 7, is the answer of the obedient versus the disobedient.

John the Baptist preached repentance from sin and turning to God for salvation. The preparation of the heart to receive the truth of the Cross of Jesus the Christ. Verse 30 gives this answer clearly of who would reject the gospel message of the grace of God. Why? Because their trust was in the law and not in the mercy and love of the Father to the world.

This then caused them to unrighteously judge even John the Baptist and refuse their own Messiah.

Jesus died for all mankind. This is grace that can only be understood by those who know that only God is good. Obedient to the truth...belief. Disobedient...rejection.

The change of heart is from the inside out. Therefore don't judge for God is always working on His own.

I don't know why that post messed up. Not going to try and correct it because I think it's still understandable.

Everyone has given wonderful answers of the truth of the gospel. The blinders of the tree of knowledge of good and evil need to be removed in order to see the tree of life.

Hi Fran, for the world I cannot understand why well meaning intelligent people cannot separate our "Position in Christ." with our "Practice in Christ.", its so easy; God's "Atoning Blood Sacrifice", saves us eternally, that being our Justification and imputed "Righteousness of Jesus Christ." Following our eternal salvation is our daily
"Practice in Christ.", which is an on going sanctification.

Jesus said all who believe on Him are not condemned, we are Justified before a Holy God by believing in the "Atoning blood sacrifice", of His dear Son Jesus Christ; and it was just so even in the Garden of Eden whereby Adam and Eve trusted God to forgive their sins by an animal sacrifice.

Like you said Fran which I love, "it was not I who died on the cross" but it was Jesus our savior. So then why can't we all start believing that "Jesus paid our sin debt in full", and we can take "zero" credit for our eternal salvation, "zero"

As we grow in grace and the knowledge of our savior our "faith" being the "root" of our salvation and then following salvation it is God who causes the growth in our life. Works are the products of a truly saved person not the cause. This reminds me a little bit about the Christian book written by Josh McDowell entitled, "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" published in 1972. A Christian will produce works through Godly love but it is purely and only "Evidence" of a truly saved life.

So please everyone try if you will to stop mixing your "Position in Christ" with your "Practice in Christ." Saved by grace plus nothing but the "Atoning blood sacrifice of our Savior Jesus Christ." After salvation Christians will produce beautiful wonderful works that God has prepared from beforehand that we should "walk in them" forever more. These works that are produced from the love of God that is shed abroad in our hearts are "Evidence of a Saved life", and that is the, "True Gospel"

Ephesians2:8-10: "Alive in Christ"
8) For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9) not by works, so that no one can boast. 10) For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.

John3:18: "For God so loved"
He that 'believeth on him is not condemned:' but he that 'believeth not is condemned already,' because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Psalms 127:1



“(A Song of degrees for Solomon.) Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.”

Hello forum, and why oh why cannot people see that Jesus Christ "paid our sin debt in full" when He died on that terrible Roman cross. The work and fruit of our labor after we are saved by God's gift of salvation, (you cannot earn it), has nothing to do with adding to, or maintaining our eternal salvation.

Those who think their blessed works to God are going to some how, "repay" or "balance" the scales of what God has given you is just plain old self-righteousness, your all puffed up just like in the parable of "The Pharisee and Tax Collector."

And oh my, "have we not done so many wonderful signs and miracles in "Your Name", Matt7:22

Luke18:14
"For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

The Pharisee and Tax Collector
9) To some who trusted in their own righteousness and viewed others with contempt, He also told this parable: 10)“Two men went up to the temple to pray. One was a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11) The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like the other men—swindlers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12) I fast twice a week and pay tithes of all that I receive.’
13) But the tax collector stood at a distance, unwilling even to lift up his eyes to heaven. Instead, he beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner!’ 14) I tell you, this man, rather than the Pharisee, went home justified. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

So wonderful to see you back here.

It's funny.
You don't realise the people you have missed until they come back.

This site albeit a discussion forum is also a community.
A virtual church.
For some this forum is their church.

We need to remember that.
Maybe send a PM, just to check in and say "Hello, how are you doing?

God bless you precious lady.
Thank you for coming back and bringing your wisdom with you.
Sorry I did not PM you when I hadn't seen you for a while.

<><.🕇.><>


You said: because we only believe with our mind and not with our heart. Please Tell me that You did not mean that the way it sounds?

Your Quote is in ERROR: But explain to me why some here don't like to ADMIT that we must obey God.

You have taken the Motive for the Deed completely out, and placed it firmly in the Realm of LAW.

Without the Motive of LOVE from the HEART, you yourself have become a LEGALIST, and you are not even obeying this Command.


John 14:15 (HCSB)
15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.


Notice HE DOES NOT SAY, we have to obey, DOES HE? HE SAID, we WILL, as a desire of LOVE, want to OBEY.

NOW I HAVE TO EXPLAIN AGAPAō LOVE, "

• agapaō denotes a divine, self-sacrificial love, exemplified in God’s offering of his Son. A continous/ongoing action of Love.

You Have to UNDERSTAND BORN AGAIN, before you can Understand what AGAPAō LOVE truly IS. It is a LOVE that ALWAYS Present, continuous/ongoing, destroying the Myth, that YOU CAN LOSE you SALVATION.

You may not Understand this, and you may even think it is all FOOLISHNESS, but PLEASE TRY TO UNDERSTAND THIS, it is the TRUTH.

This is the KIND OF LOVE THAT THE FATHER had the Holy Spirit Pour into our HEARTS, which is a synonym for a Born Again Human Spirit. This KIND of divine LOVE that GOD makes Reference to, Cannot be generated in the Human Brain, it can ONLY be generated in the Born Again Human Spirit. Yes, I am implying that the Born Again Human Spirit also THINKS TOO, but it is 100% in tune with the Will of GOD. Oh my, do I remember how the Mind of my Human Spirit, which is in my Heart, was at War with my Mind of the Flesh, which is the mind between my Ears, in the beginning. But as the Mind of the Human Spirit feeds on the Word of GOD, it will become DOMINANT over the Mind that lies between your ears.

Whether the Born Again Human Spirit is actually in your human heart, or just a reference to the Core of our being, that thinking process comes from a different Place than just between your ears. Without that part of YOU, being eternally alive, you CANNOT be obedient to John 14:15. All of your efforts will be nothing more than FILTHY RAGS.

How do I know that GOD means it is a different Part of your body, than the one that lies between your ears.


Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
5 This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. [Our LOVE for HIM and others, sprouts from HIS Love in our human spirits.]

Romans 10:9-10 (NASB)
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Deuteronomy 11:18 (HCSB)
18 “Imprint these words of mine on your hearts and minds, bind them as a sign on your hands, and let them be a symbol on your foreheads.

Colossians 3:15-16 (HCSB)
15 And let the peace of the Messiah, to which you were also called in one body, control your hearts. Be thankful.
16 Let the message about the Messiah dwell richly among you, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, and singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, with gratitude in your hearts to God.

Acts 4:32 (NIV)
32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.


Therefore the Mind of your Human Spirit, is NOT BETWEEN YOUR EARS. If you think this is all Foolishness, there is a reason:

1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIV)
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.

These deceivers will REJECT and NULLIFY the Word and believe the deceiving spirits.(Isaiah 5:20-24, Mark 7:6-13)

...while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13

...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through HYPOCRITICAL LIARS, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?

We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.

Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?

..But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:10‭-‬14‭, ‬24

...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:13‭-‬15

...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
Ephesians 5:6‭-‬7

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”...
Genesis 3:1‭-‬19

Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.

The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God.



Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why resist them?




So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?

I know it makes me feel like a dummy, but I have no idea what the abbreviation ECF stands for ? ? ?

Early Church Fathers

Must we obey to be saved?

If so what is it that we must do to be saved?

Can our odience save us?

What separates you and me from Bill Gates?
Me and you from Ghandi?

Works or faith.

Yes the above two have done great things.
But are they saved?