Not By Works

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stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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Beware brethren lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God but exhort one another daily, while it is called 'Today' lest any of you be HARDENED by the deceitfulness of sin

We can harden our hearts, open ourselves up to attack and in the end begin to doubt our salvation! Wanting the protection of Jesus and keeping close with Him is not at all works. We do not have to work to be accepted by God. Jesus is our protection. God bless you.

Dokimos

Look at the scripture again a bit closer. The deceitfulness of sin results in unbelief. Unbelief is disobedience. Obedience is faith. When you hear the gospel taught and receive the truth, called the Spirit of Christ, ( the anointed Word), that seed is planted in our hearts. The seed is of the tree of life, again, the Spirit of Christ, the anointed Word.

We still have the tree of knowledge of good and evil, mindsets of religious works. That one needs to die so feed on the tree of life. That's communion or the truth of the blood and body of Jesus, (ressurrection life) from being part of His body. Here and in heaven.

In time you will understand this greater. And this is just the baby steps.

There's come a time to walk in the truth. Takes the power of Holy Spirit.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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You don't lose your salvation because you sinned, to be clear, but running to sin leads to the process that little by little snuffs out your BELIEF in God's power to save. Avoidance of sin is good and should not be discouraged for the sake of the doctrine of substitutionary atonement.

I guess it is all a matter of who believes who is saved.
Sorry the bible does not teach the above.....the Greek verbs employed and applied unto salvation teach a present continuing result from a past completed action....

a. Was saved the second I believed
b. Am saved right now
c. Continuing to be saved into the future

IT IS all CHRIST after initial belief...he saves us to the uttermost, we are kept by his power through the faith he begins, finishes and completes, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise and we are given ETERNAL LIFE as an irrevocable gift.

The bible does not teach a salvation that can be lost or forfeit!
 
D

dokimos

Guest
Am I saved if I reject the guidance and protection of Jesus and try to earn salvation in my own strength? Not from what I know. But it is not black and white. There are teachers who teach that you can "live like the Devil" and be saved. Some here would argue that such a person was never saved at all, but not all would. Some would argue that salvation remains to be seen, too.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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I do not see active avoidance of sin as a work, but an empowerment from Jesus and a really great gift to be given because of how much sin ruins our lives NOW. We can't even see it, but the spirit (inner) man is tormented, bruised and wounded with the acts of our sin.


I must comment on this too dokimos. It's not the "acts" of sin that corrupt us, but the human nature is sin. Our nature has to change and that's only one way of acceptance by Father. Faith in His sacrifice of His Son.

We must be born again. When we are? We pass from darkness to the Light. Secure, saved in Him. The old nature has passed away.

Can we be tempted? Yes. Our minds need renewed to truth.

Topical studies would be helpful to you.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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And to add....we must help Jesus do that which he said he would do......and by default their view states clearly that Christ, his work, his promises and his power is not sufficient to save us!
Come on DC.

let's get real.
Wake up and the smell the coffee (with all the creamer and sugar)

We all know that God in the flesh came to earth after Adam and Eve messed up.
He said it in Genesis.

He did great things, did not sin.
He talked about the heart.
If memory serves me he said something about being clean on the inside.

So after all the great things he did he decided to go back to the Father.
As he went back he turned round and looked at his followers and says.

"Ok chaps, I've shown you how its to be done go ahead and do it"

That big wooden cross I do not need to hang on.
Phew I'm thankful for that because it would have hurt me.

So now I've shown you the way to do.
Be sinless, live exactly as I have loved.
So do all these things and you will be saved.
Oh by the way "Good luck with that"

And that's the truth "Good luck with that"

For those who believe that works save us.
Yet they negate the inner person.
The person who our Father wants a relationship with.
Just like with Adam & Eve.

You know I'm joshing with you for the above.

We know what Jesus did and did on our behalf.

Matthew 27:46-51
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
47 Some of those who stood there, when they heard that, said, “This Man is calling for Elijah!” 48 Immediately one of them ran and took a sponge, filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and offered it to Him to drink.
49 The rest said, “Let Him alone; let us see if Elijah will come to save Him.”
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,

Jesus saves us, not ourselves.

If we could then there would be no reason for the pain he suffered on the cross.
Not just the physical pain but the "my god my father where are you?

Temple curtain torn in two.
Full access to the throne of God, by faith that has justified us
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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The more you sin willfully, deliberately, the more "you block out the grace of God" by rejecting His answers, His way of doing things .
Block out the grace f God?

Romans5:20
But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

Hi dokimos, the bible teaches "where sin abounds grace does much more abound", so saying that the more a believer sins, the more you block out God's grace is just a huge biblical lie,

As a matter of fact you are on a conservative international forum teaching lies.

Romans5:20
"The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more."
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Am I saved if I reject the guidance and protection of Jesus and try to earn salvation in my own strength? Not from what I know. But it is not black and white. There are teachers who teach that you can "live like the Devil" and be saved. Some here would argue that such a person was never saved at all, but not all would. Some would argue that salvation remains to be seen, too.
A teacher who teaches that teaches licentiousness, jude says they are not saved, so it does not matter what people in here think, what matters is what th bible thinks
 
Mar 14, 2011
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in my own strength? Not from what I know. But it is not black and white. There are teachers who teach that you can "live like the Devil" and be saved. Some here would argue that such a person was never saved at all, but not all would. Some would argue that salvation remains to be seen, too.
If you did this, did you ever have faith to begin with? Where did God fail you to the point you no longer trust in his protection and guidance?
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
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Hi Argueless,
I agree with your posts but I have to say that I don't think it's right to say that anyone here does not obey God's commandments. You were speaking to @dcontroversal above, but it could be about anyone.

We don't know if anyone obeys God or not...my guess would be that they do their best to do what God wants them to do. There are two ways of understanding OSAS.

One way is to believe in our Lord and to follow His commandments and believe that it's HE that is keeping a person and all is attributed to Him. Although this is not biblically correct and our actions do matter....it's an acceptable form of OSAS.

Another way to understand OSAS is to say that we can do whatever we want to and still be saved. I've have read a couple of posters on this very thread say this. On a different forum, one poster stated that we could blaspheme the Holy Spirit (curse Him) and still be saved because Jesus will protect us.
This is totally unacceptable.

The problem lies with who is reading this thread. If it's a mature Christian we could discuss and disagree and continue with that. But if one is a new Christian it's not RIGHT to teach OSAS because, quite simply, it's not biblical.

Now, I've posted the ECF's here and I've been told they're not inspired.
Was John Calvin inspired? He changed the nature of God ! But I guess he knew more than the ECF's.

And who were the ECF's?

Clement (Bishop) of Rome was taught by Paul
Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr.....were taught by Peter.
Polycarp (bishop) of Smrna, Irenaeus....were taught by John.
(and others)

Who do YOU suppose knew more?
And what do you suppose these persons believed about OSAS?
Right. They didn't.
They spoke about how we're to maintain our salvation once achieved.

We are justified by our works and not our words. Clement of Rome (c. 96), 1.13.

. . . that He may both hear you, and perceive by your works that you are indeed the members of His Son. . . . Faith cannot do the works of unbelief, nor unbelief the works of faith. . . . The tree is made manifest by its fruit. So those who profess themselves to be Christians will be recognized by their conduct. . . . It is better for a man to be silent and be [a Christian], than to talk and not be one. Ignatius (c. 105)

We . . . hasten to confess our faith, persuaded and convinced as we are that those who have proved to God by their works that they followed Him, and loved to abide with Him where there is no sin to cause disturbance, can obtain these things. . . . Each man goes to everlasting punishment or salvation according to the value of his actions. Justin Martyr (c. 160), 1.165, 166.

We will give account to God not only of deeds (as slaves), but even of words and thoughts (as being those who have truly received the power of liberty). For under liberty, a man is more severely tested as to whether he will reverence, fear, and love the Lord. . . . God desires obedience, which renders [His worshippers] secure—rather than sacrifices and burnt-offerings, which avail men nothing toward righteousness. Irenaeus (c. 180), 1.482.

and much more.....
Hi God'sgrace101, thanks for calling my attention. My reply was to dcon but if it cuts through to other people's heart then I praise God for that. I have no other intention but to share the WORD of God which is the TRUTH and contrary to FALSE MAN MADE doctrines that can deceive many in this last days

….Let us, therefore, make every effort to ENTER that res(JESUS)t, so that no one will fall BY FOLLOWING THEIR EXAMPLE OF DISOBEDIENCE. For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account. Hebrews 4:11-13

...If you want to ENTER life (JESUS), OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS. Matthew 19:16-30)

And so the apostle Paul explained and EXPOSED these CLAIMERS AND TALKERS.

...We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. 1 John 2:3-6

...Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather EXPOSE THEM. For IT IS SHAMEFUL even to mention WHAT THE DISOBEDIENT DO in secret. But everything EXPOSED BY THE LIGHT becomes visible, for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: “WAKE UP, O sleeper, RISE FROM THE DEAD, and Christ will shine on you.” Ephesians 5:11-14

God bless.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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Welcome home stonesoffire, Merry Christmas and a very Happy New Year "2019"....:)
From the rising of the sun unto the going down of the same the LORD'S name is to be praised.
Psalm113:3


"Even so come Lord Jesus"

Revalation22:20
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,259
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Am I saved if I reject the guidance and protection of Jesus and try to earn salvation in my own strength? Not from what I know. But it is not black and white. There are teachers who teach that you can "live like the Devil" and be saved. Some here would argue that such a person was never saved at all, but not all would. Some would argue that salvation remains to be seen, too.
Hi dokimos, we are "saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, "Not By Works", it is the gift of God." (Eph2:8).

Take heart our God is mighty to save and will never leave or forsake you; His promises are trustworthy.

"We are "MORE" than conquerors

Romans8:37
No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us

Zephaniah 3:17
The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
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... HE WILL PUNISH THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW GOD AND DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS. THEY WILL BE PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you. With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith.2 Thessalonians 1:8-11

Who are those who DO NOTt KNOW God and DO NOT OBEY the Gospel of our LORD Jesus?

...We know that WE HAVE COME TO KNOW HIM IF WE OBEY HIS COMMANDS. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. 1 John 2:3-4

...They claim to know God, but BY THEIR ACTIONS THEY DENY HIM. They are detestable, DISOBEDIENT and unfit for doing anything good. Titus 1:16

...They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and DENY JESUS CHRIST our only Sovereign and Lord. Jude 1:4

...But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.7 Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians5:6
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
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By the way. There is no way possible my sin could choke my faith out. If I sin, Then the HS convicts me of that sin in chastening.. if nothing else. That makes my faith stronger. Because only if I lack chastening would my faith weaken, because if I am not chastened, am I really saved (the word say I am most likely illegitament and not a true child)

I was a prodigal son for 5 years. During that 5 years. I commited many worldly sins. Yet throughout that whole time. My faith did not die. It was tested.. But it was Gods chastening which brought me back. WHich strengthened my faith not the other way around.

As scripture ays, it is the knowledge I hve eternal life which keeps me in faith. I would only lose faith or choke it out if I stopped trusting God to keep me secure in him and keep his promise. If I lost faith that my eternity was secure, then and ONLY THEN could I lose faith. And if this is the case, Did you ever have faith to begin with? I would say no. (My view)
Hi E-g, amen and beautiful testimony and I was there myself at the absolute lowest time of my Christian life, there was no pleasure to be found, not even in the old favorite sins, none. It was the kindness and fear of God that lead me back. "The trauma of transparency"......:)

Luke1:49,50
49)
For the Mighty One has done great things for me.
Holy is His name.
50) His mercy extends to those who fear Him,
from generation to generation.
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
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...See to it that you DO NOT REFUSE HIM WHO SPEAKS. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him WHO WARNS US FROM HEAVEN? Hebrews 12:25

.... I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. WAKE UP! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I HAVE NOT FOUND YOUR DEEDS COMPLETE IN THE SIGHT OF MY GOD. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; OBEY IT, AND REPENT. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
Revelation 3:1-3
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Funny how many believe in their mind that just because people name Jesus that they are all in the same boat.....they cannot grasp and or dismiss the truth that most of so called Christianity teaches the exact same gospel that places one into the MANY group that Jesus rejects...

a. They claim Jesus as LORD
b. They fully expect to enter based upon what they have done in His name

The above is faith plus works for salvation when boiled down!

I AGREE WITH YOU WHOLEHEARTEDLY.


Matthew 7:20-23 (HCSB)
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day
many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them,
I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’


Romans 4:5 (HCSB)
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who declares the ungodly to be righteous, his faith is credited for righteousness.


Working for your SALVATION, means GRACE CEASES, and you are on your OWN.

Romans 11:6 (HCSB)
6 Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.


Now wouldn't it make more sense to GIVE TOTAL CREDIT TO CHRIST WHO SAVED YOU BY MERCY AND GRACE,

and then JUST LOVE HIM, because He SAVED YOU, and let that LOVE generate in you the Willingness to OBEY.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
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Hi God'sgrace101, thanks for calling my attention. My reply was to dcon but if it cuts through to other people's heart then I praise God for that. I have no other intention but to share the WORD of God which is the TRUTH and contrary to FALSE MAN MADE doctrines that can deceive many in this last days

….Let us, therefore, make every effort to ENTER that res(JESUS)t, so that no one will fall BY FOLLOWING THEIR EXAMPLE OF DISOBEDIENCE. For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account. Hebrews 4:11-13

...If you want to ENTER life (JESUS), OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS. Matthew 19:16-30)

And so the apostle Paul explained and EXPOSED these CLAIMERS AND TALKERS.

...We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. 1 John 2:3-6

...Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather EXPOSE THEM. For IT IS SHAMEFUL even to mention WHAT THE DISOBEDIENT DO in secret. But everything EXPOSED BY THE LIGHT becomes visible, for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: “WAKE UP, O sleeper, RISE FROM THE DEAD, and Christ will shine on you.” Ephesians 5:11-14

God bless.
Words straight from the written word of God.
How can anyone deny God's word??

Colossians 3:23
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
I am sorry, But this to me is The same as saying You lose salvation because of sin.

And it does not matter, As I showed, John said they can not sin, so in. Reality, there would be no danger or possibility of sin snuffing Out Our belief.


I think it matter on who has true saving faith vs those who merely belief. No one is saved based on mere belief. [/QUOTE)
He replied, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance.

Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’

But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

“Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

The Parable of the Weeds
...Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’” Matthew 13:11-30
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,259
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Words straight from the written word of God.
How can anyone deny God's word??

Colossians 3:23
Hi God'sgrace, love this bible verse, we do serve a loving God. So that whatever we do if it is leading a bible study; or visiting the sick; maybe helping meet the needs of the poor or washing the dishes at home, we should all do this as if it is Christ our Lord that we are serving.

And then after doing this work heartily there is the promise that we will receive a "reward" which is our "inheritance", from the Lord.

There are many applications here and this verse can and should be applied to our everyday living; even in the work place toward that boss that we do not like too much....:)

Colossians3:23 ,24
23)
Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24) because you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as your reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.…