YOU ARE A LIAR!!!

This is exactly why we should show his love and his light all the more because it is abnormal and uncommon and thus that much more powerful.

I have an atheist friend who has a grudge against Christians for this very reason but he says that I am not like any Christian he ever met and that if he grew up around believers like me he might not have given up on faith. His light shines the brightest in the midst of the darkness

I am too aware of the damage you are speaking of especially from the fact that the church is the main cause of it all but there is so much anger in your message, were

Sadly I have as well far more than I would like to admit however while I do share your feelings about it I think blasting your message in such anger is the wrong way to send the message. Anger even righteous anger can be a hindrance to the receiving end they won't see or hear the message itself only the fuel behind it.

You desire testimonies?

I can agree with you wholeheartedly. What is sadly missing these days is the living relationship with Jesus through the Spirit. Everyone seems to be quoting this and that, saying this, not saying that. Saying that people say they don't say enough or haven't said a thing. Or in my case say too much!

What we don't seem to have in abundance is an actual example of the Spirit walking in the flesh!!! That would go a long way to quieting the opposition. A firm answer to humble the mass hysteria of religious panic, I mean zeal.

While it is true that we should not belittle anyone, and lift the saints up, and edify them, the Bible does say some things concerning those that are hypocritical, which we know there are many, and the Bible tells us that at the end time there will be many hypocrites.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

These people do not allow the Spirit to lead them, and enjoy sins and think they are right with God, which we hear some say they cannot abstain from sins, even though the Bible says if they hate sins, and do not want sins, by the Spirit they can abstain from sins.

God said to turn away from them.

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
1Ti 6:7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.

Paul said that if anybody preaches that God blesses them with their wants, above their needs, to withdraw yourselves from them, which we know there are many that claim Christ that believe the prosperity Gospel, and love money, and material things, and enjoy the world.

1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Those that do not conduct themselves like Christ the Bible says do not keep company with them, but many people say that sin does not affect their relationship with God.

So how does that work when we are not to associate with those who will not conduct themselves like Christ, holding unto sin, which many of them do, and think they are alright with God.

Of course if we sin we can be forgiven, but many people think they are alright despite their sinning, and it is weird that it is even a belief.

So the Bible is plain that those that do not act right, and live that way, to turn away from them, withdraw yourselves from them, and do not associate with them.

2Co 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed.

Which their hypocrisy to not act Christlike gives offense to the ministry, as is testified by the world as they say hypocrites.

Of course we are not to hate anyone, but God commands that we act like Christ with no excuses.

This may or may not be received and or argued.....the truth....I have friends that pastor churches in many states and numerous countries....they ALL have the same consensus.....to a man they have all said that almost every problem they have had to deal with as a pastor has come from within the churches they pastor, they ALL say that they get treated better by unbelievers like neighbors, co-workers etc.......

This may or may not be received and or argued.....the truth....I have friends that pastor churches in many states and numerous countries....they ALL have the same consensus.....to a man they have all said that almost every problem they have had to deal with as a pastor has come from within the churches they pastor, they ALL say that they get treated better by unbelievers like neighbors, co-workers etc.......

Oh I believe that. But I also can see by your description that those pastors are not able to do the job at hand. When one is striving along with no effectual change in site one has to question reality of what is going on. Either continue to do what you believe is right, or seek God for wisdom to help you, AND DO IT! Not just make excuses or construct (deconstruct) your life so that it's not really possible. Then wonder why there is no blessing within your house.

We all like to think we are brutally honest with ourselves. The proof is in the pudding. If you can't help them, lead them to someone who can. I mean, really, that is the real mission anyway. Lead them to Jesus. Let the Spirit do the work only he can do. If you don't possess enough faith in the Spirit to do what you know is true just and right, lead them to someone who does. Put the pride away, Please!

Who can abstain?

Yes, I get excited, but it’s not for myself....The finished work of the cross IS being worked out through those that are “emptying their cup” enough to receive it, Churches all over are preaching “watered down grace”.

Oh, a hyper-dispy thread that denies evidence of conversion while embracing antinomianism.

Nothing less than 2 Timothy 3:5 in action.

Your assessment after the word "that"......is way off base and to be frank based upon a complete ignorance of the facts.....NOTHING I said indicates that any of them are not or have not done their jobs.........SO...how about GET some honesty instead of judgmental opinion...........PLEASE!

Be holy as he is holy? Messiah in me, my hope of glory? His Word cleanses us, we are children of God, now. His bride is spotless and pure. Though we sinned, we will be made as white as snow. When Jesus appears we will see him as he is, and he will see a purified bride. When does this purification/sanctification happen? All at once, or over a period of time? A nation may have been born in a day, but it's purpose and will was played out over thousands of years.

If you would like to start another thread on holiness as defined by the apostles I'd be game.

kettle met pot... Hint, when your offended it's not the best thing in the world to go on the offense.

Sorry you did not appreciate my perspective. No malice was intended. peace

How long were you waiting to get that one out?

A nation may have been born in a day, but it's purpose and destiny was played out over thousands of years.

I was not offended, just stating facts.......nothing I said indicated they had not or were not doing their job.........

Sorry, to be honest, you said the pastors all had more problems with their congregants than with the secular public. (paraphrase if I may) You did not detail the problems. It doesn't matter. They are problems all the same. And the 'consensus' was 'as a pastor I have problems with my church, but not so much with those outside my church.

Again, sorry to describe the situation as you declared but the pastors have problems within their churches, no? So much more than they have with non-believers? As a consensus? If so, it appears to me that they are not successfully leading them to the Spirit for help. Do they think they alone can feed and led them? That may be the first mistake. If a person leads by thinking they are the head and all must get to God through him, well..... A good pastor leads his fold to Jesus for food and water.