Why is praying in tongues necessary?

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Lafftur

Lafftur

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Interesting..........

Jude 17-21 King James Version (KJV)
17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
 
wolfwint

wolfwint

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Lafftur said:
Interesting..........

Jude 17-21 King James Version (KJV)
17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
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Every christian, who is born again has the Holy Spirit and can pray in the Spirit. This is not a question of have the gift of praying in tongues ore not.
 
Lafftur

Lafftur

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Acts 8:14-16 King James Version (KJV)
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Acts 8:14-16 New International Version (NIV)
14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria.

15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit,

16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
 
Lafftur

Lafftur

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Acts 1:4-5 New International Version (NIV)
4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

5 For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with[b] the Holy Spirit.”
 
Lafftur

Lafftur

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We cannot do anything for the Kingdom of God without the power of the Holy Spirit indwelling us and leading us into all truth.
 
Lafftur

Lafftur

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I was saved at 6 years old but, the Holy Spirit empowerment did not happen until I was 25 years old. The Holy Spirit baptism is real and sooooooooo necessary.
 
Lafftur

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John 16:7-15 King James Version (KJV)
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

John 14:16-18 King James Version (KJV)
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

John 14:26 King James Version (KJV)
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

There is NO WAY we can live the Christian life and be a true witness for Yeshua/Jesus without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

ALL the gifts of the Holy Spirit are in operation right now in the Earth because the Holy Spirit is in the Earth. The gifts ONLY work with the Holy Spirit. When Christ returns to the Earth for His 1,000 year reign, the gifts will cease because they will no longer be needed because Christ is back on the Earth.

Until then, the Holy Spirit in us is testifying and witnessing of the Word of God - Yeshua/Jesus to the world.

Also, teaching, guiding, instructing, comforting, counseling, and correcting those He indwells.
 
wolfwint

wolfwint

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Lafftur said:
Acts 8:14-16 King James Version (KJV)
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Acts 8:14-16 New International Version (NIV)
14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria.

15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit,

16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
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I suppose today nobody who hears today the gospel is in the situation as the samarians ore the disciples of John was.
Also i suppose the verses were written down to show the jews that the samarians also got the gospel of Jesus./ to show Johns disciples that something new happen in belonging to Jesus Christ. And that this is the same to jews, gentile, and samarians. This means to all people.
And not for create a new doctrine.
 
T

TheLearner

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Waggles said:
And you will never find proof nor come to the knowledge of truth as you simply do not believe the gospel as expounded by Jesus
and the Apostles and enacted by the first century church we read of in the NT.
As for no Pentecostal experience nor praying in tongues before 1900 that is complete false assertion - simply not true.
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Prove that in this thread on history of praying in tongues I set up. https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/what-is-the-history-of-praying-in-tongues.183643/

The only rules I have is use Primary Sources only and give links to those Primary Sources so any quotes can be read in context.
 
T

TheLearner

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jaybird88 said:
the only one that connects tongues to angel language is Paul who was not Jesus nor one of the 12. there is no proof of this outside of Paul. Peter says Paul can be hard to understand and this is a good example of that. IMO Paul would never teach anything outside of scripture. and the angel language is definitely outside of scripture.
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In I Cor Paul was speaking hypothetical, not fact.

1 Corinthians 13:1-3 J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)

13 1-3 If I speak with the eloquence of men and of angels, but have no love, I become no more than blaring brass or crashing cymbal. If I have the gift of foretelling the future and hold in my mind not only all human knowledge but the very secrets of God, and if I also have that absolute faith which can move mountains, but have no love, I amount to nothing at all. If I dispose of all that I possess, yes, even if I give my own body to be burned, but have no love, I achieve precisely nothing.

Exactly why does one give their body to be burned??? Note: Historically this is before Christians were burned at the stake.
 
Lafftur

Lafftur

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Angela53510 said:
So, you are wrong. I went to Pentecostal/charismatic churches for my first 15 years as a Christian. I was active in them, so was my husband. I taught Sunday School, led worship and played in a 40 piece orchestra in the last tongues-speaking church I was in, for quite a few years.

I spoke in tongues for that whole time. I also read my Bible through once a year, making that 15 times I read through it during that period. I also prayed a lot.

As I read my Bible, I began to see a disconnect between what I was reading, and what I was hearing in these churches. I heard more sermons on Acts 2 and the other 4 incidents in Acts of speaking in tongues, out of the other 28 chapters. And other than correction that Paul has to write in his first letter to the Corinthians, not a lot morels in the Bible in tongues. Acts 2 is the birth of the church, when the Holy Spirit was given to the church. We have always had the Spirit since then!

I was reading about the birth of the church in Acts, and how their numbers grew. Not because of tongues, but because of the gospel being preached in their language, (after the day of Pentecost, of course!) and the fellowship and caring for the newcomers.

I was reading the most amazing systematic theology in Romans in my Bible, and never heard a reference, positive or negative in church. I got sick of the shallowness of the preaching, the judgement that if "fire did not fall from heaven" then God was not there. If there wasn't group praise in tongues, the service was flat.

I heard people telling unsaved people all they need was to be baptized in the Holy Spirit, when these people didn't know the name of Jesus! I think biblically, you really do have to believe, before anything else.

I began to reflect on my salvation experience. From the moment God saved me, the Holy Spirit was there in power to lead and guide me. Then everyone started telling me I need to have the Holy Spirit, and speak in tongues. I was sure I did have the Holy Spirit, but as a new Christian, I thought these people knew more than me.

I later learned, we could not be saved, without the Holy Spirit, no second attempts necessary.

I prayed, tried to hide my doubts, which were very serious, as to whether the whole thing was fake. Then a couple of incidents at that Pentecostal church and a Vineyard church, where I was point blank lied to by a pastor, convinced me I was not dealing with mature, educated (in a spiritual sense, this was long before I went to seminary) Christians.

And really, how could anyone grow in that kind of atmosphere, when the Word was never expounded? Including the pastors. The tongues seemed more and more forced. I stopped speaking in tongues, prayer language or otherwise, and just talked to God. Sometimes I groaned, when life was bad, which was a far cry from the fake tongues I and everyone else had been pretending to speak in. Of course, they thought it was real, as I once had, before I woke up and realized it was a lie!

We changed to an Evangelical Free Church, and it was night and day. People were so much more loving and caring. People helped me with my RA. The pastor went through so many books of the Bible, over the next 5 years we lived there. He taught doctrine. What I was reading in my Bible, was being preached in Sunday morning. Later, we attended Baptist churches, no charismatic churches, were I grew more as a Christian in a month, than in 15 years in tongues speaking churches.

I would love to see more people freed from tongues, the way it is practiced today. I pray they will read their Bibles, and reflect if the whole Bible, and question whether many doctrines are being taught, or just tongues, which doesn't even begin to touch on the work of the Holy Spirit.

So, until you can break free if your experiential addictions, and seek the whole counsel of God, you will never see how this kind of church, and what goes on in them, are not a step forward, but a stagnant and unbiblical emphasis which literally hold people back from walking with God and being transformed into the image of Christ!

PS For those that think that non tongue speaking churches are "dead" churches, lose the addiction, and you will find a much richer, dynamic and creative worship and teaching when the nonsense babbling is stilled, and God is truly free to move among his people!
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I am so sorry for what happen to you in that church and denomination.

I've come out of all denominations, even non-denominational, my identity is in Christ alone. The Holy Spirit is my Teacher, I don't follow man nor man's doctrine or religion. I follow Christ. I am loved and accepted in the Beloved and so are you! :love:
 
T

TheLearner

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Sketch said:
That is in reference to prophetic tongues.
Tongues used to address the entire congregation. (#3 below)
There are at least five different kinds of tongues.

Five Different kinds of tongues
1) Personal prayer language - Speaking to/with God
2) Intercessory prayer language - Praying for others in the Spirit
3) Prophetic ministry language - Addressing the whole church/preferably with interpretation
4) Singing in the Spirit - Singing in tongues/worship activity
5) Evangelistic language - Speaking the message of God to a people in their own language (not yours)
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You already posted that and I answered it.
 
T

TheLearner

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Lafftur said:
Acts 8:14-16 King James Version (KJV)
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Acts 8:14-16 New International Version (NIV)
14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria.

15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit,

16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
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There is a difference between being Indwelt with the HS and being filled with the HS. You appear to be saying they were not Indwelt with the Holy Spirit. They would not be Christians if they were not indwelt yet.
 
S

SpoonJuly

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Lafftur said:
John 16:7-15 King James Version (KJV)
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

John 14:16-18 King James Version (KJV)
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

John 14:26 King James Version (KJV)
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

There is NO WAY we can live the Christian life and be a true witness for Yeshua/Jesus without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

ALL the gifts of the Holy Spirit are in operation right now in the Earth because the Holy Spirit is in the Earth. The gifts ONLY work with the Holy Spirit. When Christ returns to the Earth for His 1,000 year reign, the gifts will cease because they will no longer be needed because Christ is back on the Earth.

Until then, the Holy Spirit in us is testifying and witnessing of the Word of God - Yeshua/Jesus to the world.

Also, teaching, guiding, instructing, comforting, counseling, and correcting those He indwells.
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After reading many of your post, you seem to be suggesting that if I do not speak in tongues, then I do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling me.
You are saying that I can not live a Christian life, be a true witness, nor even enjoy the teaching, guiding, instructing, comforting, or correction.

You have no authority to pass that judgment on me.
And by the way, it is a lie.
The Holy Spirit has indwelled me from the moment I was saved. I KNOW He is there.
Never spoke in tongues nor had any need or even an urge to participate in that foolishness.
 
J

justpassinthrough

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wolfwint said:
I am baptised with the Holy Spirit when i became a christian. And I also got a gift. To distinguish the Spirits.
I cant see behind the pentecostal/ charismatic teaching about the Holy Spirit ( baptism with the Holy Spirit) Gods Spirit. And I cant find this teaching in the NT.
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The baptism with the Holy Spirit, like baptism in water comes after a person believes, or receives the Gospel message and is saved; born again, regenerated.


And they heeded him because he had astonished them with his sorceries for a long time. But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done. Acts 8:11-13


At this point the region of Samaria believed the Gospel message and was baptized by Phillip with water baptism.


They had not yet received the Holy Spirit.



  • they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
  • For as yet He had fallen upon none of them.
  • They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
  • Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
Acts 8:14-19


JPT
 
T

TheLearner

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Lafftur said:
Acts 1:4-5 New International Version (NIV)
4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

5 For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with[b] the Holy Spirit.”
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John 20:22 Good News Translation (GNT)
22 Then he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

They were already indwelt with the Holy Spirit in John 20:22.


He breathed on them (enepushsen). First aorist active indicative of empusaw, late verb, here only in N.T. though eleven times in the LXX and in the papyri. It was a symbolic art with the same word used in the LXX when God breathed the breath of life upon Adam ( Genesis 2:7 ). It occurs also in Ezekiel 37:9 . See Christ's promise in John 16:23 . Jesus gives the disciples a foretaste of the great pentecost. Receive ye the Holy Ghost (labete pneuma agion). Second aorist (ingressive) active imperative of lambanw. Note absence of article here (pneuma agion) though to pneuma to agion in John 14:26 . No real distinction is to be observed, for Holy Spirit is treated as a proper name with or without the article.

And saith unto them, receive ye the Holy Ghost;
meaning not the grace of the Holy Ghost in regeneration, which they had received already; but the gifts of the Spirit, to qualify them for the work he now sent them to do, and which were not now actually bestowed; but this breathing on them, and the words that attended it, were a symbol, pledge, and confirmation, of what they were to receive on the day of Pentecost: hence it appears, that it is the Spirit of God, who, by his gifts and grace, makes and qualifies men to be ministers of the Gospel; and our Lord by this action, and these words, gives a very considerable proof of his deity: the Papists show their impudence and wickedness, in imitating Christ by their insufflations, or breathing on men; pretending thereby to convey the Holy Spirit to them.

He breathed on them - New life and vigour, and saith, as ye receive this breath out of my mouth, so receive ye the Spirit out of my fulness: the Holy Ghost influencing you in a peculiar manner, to fit you for your great embassy. This was an earnest of pentecost.
 
Angela53510

Angela53510

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Lafftur said:
Acts 8:14-16 King James Version (KJV)
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Acts 8:14-16 New International Version (NIV)
14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria.

15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit,

16 becau the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
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Did you even read my post? My testimony? How sick I was of a a few Scriptures in Acts?

There is a whole Bible, 66 books, thousands of incredible pages. About who God is. Why Jesus was sent, and what he did for us on the cross! Doctrine, wisdom, counselling, advice, admonition, and how to walk/live with God. The word walk in Greek is peripateo and it also means "live." It appears hundreds of times in the NT, nothing to do with this one time experiential event. Waking with Christ, through the Holy Spirit, is how we are transformed. Using our minds, not some kind of one time experience. Transformation is daily walk!

"Therefore I exhort you, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a sacrifice—alive, holy, and pleasing to God—which is your reasonable service. 2 Do not be conformed to this present world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may test and approve what is the will of God—what is good and well-pleasing and perfect." airman's 12:1-2

The interesting thing about this passage, Paul follows it with instructions on how to live, and gifts! None of which is tongues or prophecy!

"For by the grace given to me I say to every one of you not to think more highly of yourself than you ought to think, but to think with sober discernment, as God has distributed to each of you a measure of faith. 4 For just as in one body we have many members, and not all the members serve the same function, 5 so we who are many are one body in Christ, and individually we are members who belong to one another. 6 And we have different gifts according to the grace given to us. If the gift is prophecy, that individual must use it in proportion to his faith. 7 If it is service, he must serve; if it is teaching, he must teach; 8 if it is exhortation, he must exhort; if it is contributing, he must do so with sincerity; if it is leadership, he must do so with diligence; if it is showing mercy, he must do so with cheerfulness." Romans 12: 3-8

I had the so-called "Baptism in the Holy Spirit," which is not actually in the Bible. (This is a noun phrase, not an verb, like Baptism) in 1980. There was no additional fullness, because I WAS full of the Holy Spirit.

So, learn about the rest of the Bible. I've read Acts probably 60-70 times, including in Koine Greek and French. I studied it is seminary. I taught a Bible study on it! Acts is so much more than some individual getting some second "blessing!" It is about community, about the Holy Spirit leading the church to grow not just in numbers, but in spirit and character. It is about solid teaching, about evangelism, and the history of the church.

Read the whole book of Acts!! Read the whole NT and the OT.

And if I seem angry, try exasperated instead. I am tired of a lie, and how it binds/blinds people from exploring the whole Bible, to say nothing of the communal aspects of the birth of the church, which is about the Holy Spirit falling on 120 followers of Jesus, including the disciples, and then, speaking in real tongues, and people hearing the gospel in their own language.

I know there are people who go beyond these superficial interpretations. Gordon Fee is one of the top Greek scholars in the world. He writes commentaries, books in many topics, and is on translation committees. He is not obsessed with 5 incidents in Acts, although he is Pentecostal. He uses his learning to help the body of Christ grow!

I do not like this obsession with a one time dubious event. If you are growing in your faith (not talking about just tongues) sharing the gospel, loving God and your neighbour, then the Holy Spirit IS working with power in your life. And that is all you will ever need!

There is no OT promise for tongues, the way it is practised today. Jesus is the promise. The Holy Spirit is given to us when we are saved, to seal the promise of Jesus. Not for some individual singular experience! The Holy Spirit is the link to Jesus and the Father! Why do you need a bigger link? I assure you, God gave you the whole package when you were saved. So live it!
 
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