Sirach: Its Relevance to Jesus' Teaching and Christian Spirituality
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Did he? During His ministry years, the Bible and Jesus tell us this:
If He actually entered into rabbinical studies with one of Hillel's disciples (for instance) .. perhaps even with Hillel's grandson, Gamaliel .. then why would the teachers have asked/wondered what they did about Him (in v15)? .. and why would Jesus have said what He did (in v16)?
No doubt in choosing to temporarily set aside the full use of some of His Divine attributes (such as omniscience) .. Philippians 2:5-8, He, as a now human Child (as you just pointed out), needed to grow physically & mentally & spiritually ~but~ .. did He do so under the tutelage and "wisdom" of men, or under the tutelage His Father and the HS ... just like He told us that He did?
So, it's your belief that Jesus was listening to what they had to say and asking them questions for 'His' benefit, rather than for theirs (that He needed them to teach Him about God, His word and His ways)? It's possible I suppose (but how can we know
). Then again:
Does it? Do you also believe that the, "spotless Lamb of God", dishonored His parents .. even once? If He did, could He still rightly be understood to be innocent? Rather, I find this exchange to be both telling and amazing (as Jesus Himself seemed amazed at His parents' reaction and lack of understanding, as well).
A Jewish "wisdom" teacher??
I am sure that He was familiar with the non-Biblical wisdom literature of the day (that was written between the end of the OT and the beginning of the NT), but neither He nor the Apostles quoted any of it (nor did they say things like, "it is written" about any of it). Fortunately, the "wisdom" that He brought us in the Bible was from a much higher Source than that which is contained in the Apocrypha.
The Jews taught/believed that they had two inspired sources from God/through Moses that were binding upon their hearts/consciences to draw upon, the "written" Torah, and the "oral" Torah (this belief is remarkably similar to that of the Roman Catholic Church and what they teach about their "Tradition", save the fact that it came through Moses).
It should also be noted concerning the Jewish (oral) "Tradition" that Jesus had things like this to say about it:
Sirach seems to have a number of wise sayings in it, and some of what it says may have even be "inspired" (so to speak) by the words of the Bible, but I believe that Sirach remains, nevertheless, nothing more than the words and wisdom of men, ~not~ the breathed/inspired words of God Himself. Like other wisdom literature of the day, some of the statements made in Sirach line up with the Scriptures (or at least do not directly contradict what the Bible has to say), but it does contain heretical statements as well, statements that contradict, and therefore invalidate, the word of God (it should also be quickly noted that Sirach was never part of Jewish oral or written Tradition).
~Deut
p.s. - again, one of the problems with all of the Apocryphal books/literature is that while some of the teaching found there may not contradict/invalidate what the Bible says and may, in fact, repeat what the OT says word for word, or come close to doing so anyway (cf honoring one's parents can result in a prolonged life, for instance), it also teaches .. sometimes within the very same passage .. heresy (that obviously does contradict what the Bible says).
Where, for instance, does that Bible, OT or New, even insinuate that honoring one's parents is a way that our sins can be atoned for? (or in a lesser way, that a blessing will come from our parents as a kind of payment for doing what the Bible commands us to do?)
John 7
14 When it was now the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and began to teach.
15 The Jews then were astonished, saying, “How has this man become learned, having never been educated?”
16 So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
14 When it was now the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and began to teach.
15 The Jews then were astonished, saying, “How has this man become learned, having never been educated?”
16 So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
If He actually entered into rabbinical studies with one of Hillel's disciples (for instance) .. perhaps even with Hillel's grandson, Gamaliel .. then why would the teachers have asked/wondered what they did about Him (in v15)? .. and why would Jesus have said what He did (in v16)?
No doubt in choosing to temporarily set aside the full use of some of His Divine attributes (such as omniscience) .. Philippians 2:5-8, He, as a now human Child (as you just pointed out), needed to grow physically & mentally & spiritually ~but~ .. did He do so under the tutelage and "wisdom" of men, or under the tutelage His Father and the HS ... just like He told us that He did?
So, it's your belief that Jesus was listening to what they had to say and asking them questions for 'His' benefit, rather than for theirs (that He needed them to teach Him about God, His word and His ways)? It's possible I suppose (but how can we know
). Then again:Luke 2
47 All who heard Him were amazed at His understanding and His answers.
47 All who heard Him were amazed at His understanding and His answers.
Does it? Do you also believe that the, "spotless Lamb of God", dishonored His parents .. even once? If He did, could He still rightly be understood to be innocent? Rather, I find this exchange to be both telling and amazing (as Jesus Himself seemed amazed at His parents' reaction and lack of understanding, as well).
Luke 2
49 He said to them, “Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father’s house?”
50 But they did not understand the statement which He had made to them.
49 He said to them, “Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father’s house?”
50 But they did not understand the statement which He had made to them.
A Jewish "wisdom" teacher??
I am sure that He was familiar with the non-Biblical wisdom literature of the day (that was written between the end of the OT and the beginning of the NT), but neither He nor the Apostles quoted any of it (nor did they say things like, "it is written" about any of it). Fortunately, the "wisdom" that He brought us in the Bible was from a much higher Source
than that which is contained in the Apocrypha.The Jews taught/believed that they had two inspired sources from God/through Moses that were binding upon their hearts/consciences to draw upon, the "written" Torah, and the "oral" Torah (this belief is remarkably similar to that of the Roman Catholic Church and what they teach about their "Tradition", save the fact that it came through Moses).
It should also be noted concerning the Jewish (oral) "Tradition" that Jesus had things like this to say about it:
Matthew 7
6 He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
7 ‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’
8 “Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
10 “For Moses said, ‘HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER’; and, ‘HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH’;
11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”
6 He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
7 ‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’
8 “Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
10 “For Moses said, ‘HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER’; and, ‘HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH’;
11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”
Sirach seems to have a number of wise sayings in it, and some of what it says may have even be "inspired" (so to speak) by the words of the Bible, but I believe that Sirach remains, nevertheless, nothing more than the words and wisdom of men, ~not~ the breathed/inspired words of God Himself. Like other wisdom literature of the day, some of the statements made in Sirach line up with the Scriptures (or at least do not directly contradict what the Bible has to say), but it does contain heretical statements as well, statements that contradict, and therefore invalidate, the word of God (it should also be quickly noted that Sirach was never part of Jewish oral or written Tradition).
~Deut
p.s. - again, one of the problems with all of the Apocryphal books/literature is that while some of the teaching found there may not contradict/invalidate what the Bible says and may, in fact, repeat what the OT says word for word, or come close to doing so anyway (cf honoring one's parents can result in a prolonged life, for instance), it also teaches .. sometimes within the very same passage .. heresy (that obviously does contradict what the Bible says).
Where, for instance, does that Bible, OT or New, even insinuate that honoring one's parents is a way that our sins can be atoned for? (or in a lesser way, that a blessing will come from our parents as a kind of payment for doing what the Bible commands us to do?)
Sirach 3
1 Hear me your father, O children, and do thereafter, that ye may be safe.
2 For the Lord hath given the father honour over the children, and hath confirmed the authority of the mother over the sons.
3 Whoso honoureth his father maketh an atonement for his sins.
4 And he that honoureth his mother is as one that layeth up treasure.
5 Whoso honoureth his father shall have joy of his own children; and when he maketh his prayer, he shall be heard.
6 He that honoureth his father shall have a long life; and he that is obedient unto the Lord shall be a comfort to his mother.
7 He that feareth the Lord will honour his father, and will do service unto his parents, as to his masters.
8 Honour thy father and mother both in word and deed, that a blessing may come upon thee from them.
9 For the blessing of the father establisheth the houses of children; but the curse of the mother rooteth out foundations.
. 1 Hear me your father, O children, and do thereafter, that ye may be safe.
2 For the Lord hath given the father honour over the children, and hath confirmed the authority of the mother over the sons.
3 Whoso honoureth his father maketh an atonement for his sins.
4 And he that honoureth his mother is as one that layeth up treasure.
5 Whoso honoureth his father shall have joy of his own children; and when he maketh his prayer, he shall be heard.
6 He that honoureth his father shall have a long life; and he that is obedient unto the Lord shall be a comfort to his mother.
7 He that feareth the Lord will honour his father, and will do service unto his parents, as to his masters.
8 Honour thy father and mother both in word and deed, that a blessing may come upon thee from them.
9 For the blessing of the father establisheth the houses of children; but the curse of the mother rooteth out foundations.
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And when He was come into His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said,
Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
Is not this the carpenter’s son?
Is not His mother called Mary?
And His brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
And His sisters, are they not all with us?
Whence then hath this man all these things?
(Matthew 13:54-56)
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Keep all in mind. Yes, any who seek signs to believe there is a god is of that sinful generation referred to in the Word, but if you have the walks imilar to mine and so many others, you constantly see signs, you know, those many coincidences that happen to believer?
Praise God always, amen.
Praise God always, amen.
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Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself (Jesus Christ) likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;......Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
(Heb 2:14,17,18; 4:14-16; 5:6-9 KJV)
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him,
Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
(Heb 2:14,17,18; 4:14-16; 5:6-9 KJV)
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him,
Irrelevant! Jesus could easily have picked up the insights from Sirach and parables that He would later revise to suit his own teaching from rabbis at the synagogue He attended. We know little about "the missing years" prior to His baptism and there were other educational opportunities for Jesus other than study under a rabbi (e. g. Essene teachers and communities).
Why would Jesus pick up the private interpretation of another when he himself was the interpretation of God clothed with temporal flesh? (the word became flesh covered) I would think he was eating of the kind of food that the disciples knew not of, eating and drinking by faith believing Him not seen. Why would Jesus seek after the philosophies of men as the wisdom thereof this world that looks to the things seen the temporal?
How old was he when he went around doing the will of Him not seen....12?
Luke 2:48-50 King James Version (KJV)And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
The spiritual meaning was hid in that historical parable
How old was he when he went around doing the will of Him not seen....12?
Luke 2:48-50 King James Version (KJV)And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
The spiritual meaning was hid in that historical parable
garee: "Why would Jesus pick up the private interpretation of another when he himself was the interpretation of God clothed with temporal flesh? (the word became flesh covered)."
FIrst, because the evidence demonstrates that Jesus did learn from His Jewish heritage and surrounding teachers.
Second, because He was fully human and therefore limited in knowledge and wisdom. True, He received prophetic revelation from the Father. But He also incorporated the best of available parables and Jewish insights (e. g. in Sirach) into His own teaching.
FIrst, because the evidence demonstrates that Jesus did learn from His Jewish heritage and surrounding teachers.
Second, because He was fully human and therefore limited in knowledge and wisdom. True, He received prophetic revelation from the Father. But He also incorporated the best of available parables and Jewish insights (e. g. in Sirach) into His own teaching.
PURE SPECULATION AND NONSENSE.
I guess you have ignored the fact that the boy Jesus was teaching the teachers.
And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers. (Luke 2:46,47)
Jewish boys at the age of 12 were barely getting an understanding of the Torah. And here was the boy Jesus discoursing on spiritual matters, and creating shock and awe within the most learned rabbis and priests. We should never forget that Christ is also designated as the Wisdom of God in Scripture.
Therefore no one should attempt to delve into the childhood and early manhood of Christ. It can only lead to speculation and a false narrative. God had very good reasons for closing off that chapter of the life of Christ. They should be respected.
I guess you have ignored the fact that the boy Jesus was teaching the teachers.
And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers. (Luke 2:46,47)
Jewish boys at the age of 12 were barely getting an understanding of the Torah. And here was the boy Jesus discoursing on spiritual matters, and creating shock and awe within the most learned rabbis and priests. We should never forget that Christ is also designated as the Wisdom of God in Scripture.
Therefore no one should attempt to delve into the childhood and early manhood of Christ. It can only lead to speculation and a false narrative. God had very good reasons for closing off that chapter of the life of Christ. They should be respected.
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This seems to be the case. Then again, we also have Biblical testimonies of both the Jewish teachers and Jesus Himself (from His ministry years) that must be considered, because they tell us things like this:
There is no verifiable evidence of that MH. In fact, the evidence that exists seems to point to the opposite conclusion (so any such belief, that tells us that Jesus incorporated the Apocryphal books' teaching/wisdom into His Biblical teachings is, at best, pure conjecture).
The Jews did not/do not accept the Apocryphal books as Scripture, which is part of the reason that the Protestant churches do not (along with the fact that they were never quoted in the NT, even once, as well, of course, that they can be shown to teach heresy .. as I just demonstrated in small part in my last post above).
They have been shown to be very handy when attempting to verify certain Roman Catholic doctrines/dogma that 1. cannot be otherwise verified in either the OT or NT or that 2. have been shown to be clearly heretical by the OT/NT, so the reason that they are held to be a type of "second" canon (rather than simply as important/historical books) by the RCC seems plain enough (even though the RCC has to look past the heretical portions, and the other problems that exist with these books, to claim them as a second "canon").
~Deut
John 7
14 When it was now the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and began to teach.
15 The Jews then were astonished, saying, “How has this man become learned, having never been educated?”
16 So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
14 When it was now the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and began to teach.
15 The Jews then were astonished, saying, “How has this man become learned, having never been educated?”
16 So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
There is no verifiable evidence of that MH. In fact, the evidence that exists seems to point to the opposite conclusion (so any such belief, that tells us that Jesus incorporated the Apocryphal books' teaching/wisdom into His Biblical teachings is, at best, pure conjecture).
The Jews did not/do not accept the Apocryphal books as Scripture, which is part of the reason that the Protestant churches do not (along with the fact that they were never quoted in the NT, even once, as well, of course, that they can be shown to teach heresy .. as I just demonstrated in small part in my last post above).
They have been shown to be very handy when attempting to verify certain Roman Catholic doctrines/dogma that 1. cannot be otherwise verified in either the OT or NT or that 2. have been shown to be clearly heretical by the OT/NT, so the reason that they are held to be a type of "second" canon (rather than simply as important/historical books) by the RCC seems plain enough (even though the RCC has to look past the heretical portions, and the other problems that exist with these books, to claim them as a second "canon").
~Deut
what evidence has demonstrated that?
this demonstrates that the Jewish educational system didn't recall ever having Jesus enrolled in it:
and this demonstrates that the people Jesus grew up around didn't have any idea how He could have become knowledgeable about wisdom:
this demonstrates that the Jewish educational system didn't recall ever having Jesus enrolled in it:
"How did this man get such learning without having been taught?"
(John 7:15)
(John 7:15)
and this demonstrates that the people Jesus grew up around didn't have any idea how He could have become knowledgeable about wisdom:
"Where did this man get this wisdom?"
(Matthew 13:54)
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it is apparent that Jesus always had the wisdom of the Jews, and of course,
He was very familiar with Jewish Law, Halakah = the walk'.
LUKE 10:4.
Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
in other words in the Jewish Law it is saying, 'have no other business in mind'...
this a direct quote from Halakah, Jewish Law, when one is going to the Temple -
so, when one goes to minister in this first century culture, one is going as one
who is going to the temple, but if you contrast this with MARK 7, Jesus is just
deriding and scolding the Jews for paying more attention to Halakah than Scripture -
so it appears that if it is good wisdom, The Lord uses it - obviously here, it's a familiarity
that the disciples had with it.
the point is that it is not 'cut-and-dried', Jesus was a first century Jew, that is the time
that He lived, and if you are not familiar with that culture, at least on a basic level, then
the scripture will be very hard to grasp in correct context...
He was very familiar with Jewish Law, Halakah = the walk'.
LUKE 10:4.
Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
in other words in the Jewish Law it is saying, 'have no other business in mind'...
this a direct quote from Halakah, Jewish Law, when one is going to the Temple -
so, when one goes to minister in this first century culture, one is going as one
who is going to the temple, but if you contrast this with MARK 7, Jesus is just
deriding and scolding the Jews for paying more attention to Halakah than Scripture -
so it appears that if it is good wisdom, The Lord uses it - obviously here, it's a familiarity
that the disciples had with it.
the point is that it is not 'cut-and-dried', Jesus was a first century Jew, that is the time
that He lived, and if you are not familiar with that culture, at least on a basic level, then
the scripture will be very hard to grasp in correct context...
Agreeing in what you have said......but your excuse of not hearing or being taught proposition.....opens the door to a lot of predetermined predestination evidenced in or by prophecy.......
Israel was a stiff necked adulterous idolatrous bride to God.....that he allowed to be ravaged and carried off into captivity...warned repeatedly the prophets warned them and they never listened.
Because I believe God predestined them by prophecy to bare the burden of his confounding of them.
They had the scripture that the Crucifixion was coming and I belive it was predestined from the moment Adam fell from grace if even not before !
So my point would be somewhere around 350 scriptural indicators of the coming of the Cross/Christ were available to Judaism but because of Gods predetermined predestination had some heard been told taught believed etc.....
It wouldn't have made not one dot or tittle of difference because the Burden of Israel was predestined to fulfill Gods will word and purposes.
I see people make so many speculations in posts with if this had happened or that had happened. ...lol
( and I am definitely not accusing you of it....only using your post as a springboard of thought for consideration )
With the ultimate final thought being it doesn't matter at all what anyone was taught or where the son of man honed his knowledge and skills Iron sharpens Iron and Gods word sharpens the razor edge.....and his will shall be done regardless of what any man chooses to teach speculate debate or listen to.
Amen.....but no matter where or what first point it was chiseled in eternal stone or when the last prophecy of the word coming was before Christ arrived.....it was coming no matter what like an unstoppable heavily loaded freight train coming off a high elevation Mountain grade.....lol😀
One of the most direct final indicators direct from God I look at is Zechariah 12 the burden of Israel which may be prophecied for a later time but still it indicates that eventually the non believers of orthodox Judaism will be converted to Christ.....
And God speaking...if the english translation is reprovable and I believe it is says......Zech. 12:10......
" And they will look upon....
( ME ) WHOM THEY PIERCED!!!"
and mourn.......
" I will pour out the spirit of supplication and grace upon the house of David......."
Israel was a stiff necked adulterous idolatrous bride to God.....that he allowed to be ravaged and carried off into captivity...warned repeatedly the prophets warned them and they never listened.
Because I believe God predestined them by prophecy to bare the burden of his confounding of them.
They had the scripture that the Crucifixion was coming and I belive it was predestined from the moment Adam fell from grace if even not before !
So my point would be somewhere around 350 scriptural indicators of the coming of the Cross/Christ were available to Judaism but because of Gods predetermined predestination had some heard been told taught believed etc.....
It wouldn't have made not one dot or tittle of difference because the Burden of Israel was predestined to fulfill Gods will word and purposes.
I see people make so many speculations in posts with if this had happened or that had happened. ...lol
( and I am definitely not accusing you of it....only using your post as a springboard of thought for consideration )
With the ultimate final thought being it doesn't matter at all what anyone was taught or where the son of man honed his knowledge and skills Iron sharpens Iron and Gods word sharpens the razor edge.....and his will shall be done regardless of what any man chooses to teach speculate debate or listen to.
Amen.....but no matter where or what first point it was chiseled in eternal stone or when the last prophecy of the word coming was before Christ arrived.....it was coming no matter what like an unstoppable heavily loaded freight train coming off a high elevation Mountain grade.....lol😀
One of the most direct final indicators direct from God I look at is Zechariah 12 the burden of Israel which may be prophecied for a later time but still it indicates that eventually the non believers of orthodox Judaism will be converted to Christ.....
And God speaking...if the english translation is reprovable and I believe it is says......Zech. 12:10......
" And they will look upon....
( ME ) WHOM THEY PIERCED!!!"
and mourn.......
" I will pour out the spirit of supplication and grace upon the house of David......."
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