Not By Works

FollowHisSteps · Mar 26, 2019

This is where theological discussion has to be done carefully.
Different individuals hold different views on sin, repentance, confession, restitution etc
Some are desiring to walk like Jesus, one step at a time.
Others have no aspirations and believe this is impossible and just heresy.

Some say no matter how people come to faith, they are saved which cannot be lost.
Their subsequent life style has no bearing on the truth of their faith, or matters.

In these discussions I have yet to meet someone doing good things to be saved.
I have seen people saying we cannot continue in sin and claim to know Jesus.

So we have a great spread of faith positions, polarised by certain individuals into simplistic
statements.

I have seen everyone say coming to faith in the cross of the forgiveness of sins is salvation.
It is though apparent some hate a righteous walk, so much as to claim anyone who talks
about such a thing is a "works salvationist". This is just a way of justifying easy believism
as a legitimate position which traditionally the church has rejected as heresy.

So we get people saying the Nazarene church is a godly place, yet if one shares their
doctrines of faith, one is deceived and going to hell.

This is a true disconnect with truth and theology. And it occurs when people have lost
the argument of theology but wish to stir up dissension to get people to see their way is
correct through taking positions and being abusive rather than openly showing where they are.

So I would suggest abuse is the real objective and generating anger and bitterness in people
against others, without any justification, other than the anger and bitterness that dwells within
them. This behaviour has been seen across churches, forums, and unconnected individuals.

So the true antidote is to walk like Jesus and love as He calls us to love.

Argueless · Mar 26, 2019

... Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained. Philippians 3:12-16

Argueless · Mar 26, 2019

...For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Ephesians 5:23

Argueless · Mar 26, 2019

...Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who RUNS AHEAD and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work. 2 John 1:7-11

FollowHisSteps · Mar 26, 2019

Argueless said:

A man with such polarised views who wishes to condemn believers with no fear or acknowledgement
of God, there maybe will never be anything but an aggressive condemning response.

They want to believe they are the christian soldier fighting the last fight against the evil picts,
rather than the mini gospel preacher ignoring Gods glorious unchanging revelation.

You would think God declaring so much, would make one think, "God would not put so much
effort into something that had no value or substance?"

But to even ask such a question would be like committing emotional suicide, and invalidate
years of behaviour and condemnation, 1,000 of disputes wrongly taken and pushed, sin as high
as the sky which needs repenting of. But then nothing is impossible for God, and stronger men
have been turned around by the loving King. Thank you Jesus.

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 26, 2019

FollowHisSteps said:

Well, I have seen some saying [things to the effect of], "hopefully, if you keep doing all those 'good things,' that in the end you'll be saved."

[EDITED because I had grabbed the wrong sentence (in quoting it), one I was not electing to address, at least at the present time

]

OTOH, perhaps you just mean to say that (in these discussions) you see no one doing good things.

(LOL)

mailmandan · Mar 26, 2019

YourTruthGod said:

The Pharisees, along with many other people in various false religions and cults who twist the scriptures and pervert the gospel also believe they obey God, but are deceived.

Argueless · Mar 26, 2019

mailmandan said:

For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Jude 1:4

...You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance? But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism. All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. Romans 2:1-16

FollowHisSteps · Mar 26, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

You are right, there are some who seem to be earning salvation by expressing things this way.

Am I wrong to think of people as sinners worthy of being befriended, rather than enemies to
be fought against as if they are terribly evil hordes destroying all before them?

I have seen good brothers and sisters be turned into ugly sarcastic creatures who demolish
others, rather than show the fruit of the Spirit. It is this that concerns me most, because as time
progresses many here know family members of many different loyalties to denominations and
they would not address them like some address others here.

It maybe the nature of this medium, but we are witness's before our King.
It is not difficult to see weaknesses, it is much harder to bless the work God has done and encourage
others to walk closer to our Lord. Jesus came to encourage, to heal, to make straight, to lead and
calls us to follow. But we need to start with how we address others in love, grace and patience.

So God bless you. May we walk further with our Lord together in His love, Amen

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 26, 2019

Argueless said:

To aid in ascertaining the context of 2 John 1:7-11, a quote from William Kelly (I trust is straightforward and simple enough):

[quoting]

"Here, we learn, went out into the world "those that confess not Jesus Christ coming in flesh." Christ's coming is now expressed in the abstract present ['coming'], rather than as the perfect of 1 John 4:2 ['having come' - perfect tense] (the present result of a past action). This makes no difference practically for the truth, which in both cases is the confession of His person thus qualified. Accordingly, as there so here, to leave out the words "that is" gives the force better than in the Authorised and the Revised Versions. The truth of His person these misleaders did not believe. They do not confess Him. Not that they denied necessarily the historical fact of His birth, but they did not confess Christ's person coming or come in flesh. For the deep and wondrous truth is that He who was the Son of God from all eternity should so come. Such is the confession of all who have life and are anointed by the Spirit of God. He might have come as an angel or in any other way possible, but for God's will and glory He was pleased to come in flesh. This the misleaders opposed. It is the confession of Him whose divine and human natures united in one person. It is not all that Christianity means, but it is its basis without which redemption is impossible. For one not to confess Jesus thus come is to be the misleader and the antichrist."

--William Kelly, 2 John Commentary

[end quoting; bold, underline, and bracketed inserts mine]

mailmandan · Mar 26, 2019

YourTruthGod said:

The Greek word for "repent" is "metanoia" (noun) and "matanoeo" (verb) you see as defined in the Strongs #3340, 3341: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind. Repentance basically means a "change of mind" and the context must determine what is involved in this change of mind. Where salvation is in view, repentance actually precedes saving faith in Christ and is not a totally separate act from faith. It is actually the same coin with two sides. Repentance is on one side (what you change your mind about) and faith in Christ is on the positive side, the new direction of this change of mind.

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ

Those who have repented will demonstrate their repentance by their deeds (Acts 26:20) which is the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8) and will no longer practice sin, but practice righteousness. (1 John 3:9-10)

Repent does not mean "completely stop sinning/become sinless" 100% of the time and obtaining salvation is not based on the merits of our performance in becoming sinless. Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness. (1 John 1:8-10)

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 26, 2019

EDIT (to add to my post): and the last line from Kelly's 2 John Commentary:

"... the doctrine of the Christ does claim the allegiance of every saint; and he who undermines His person is to be discarded not only publicly but from private recognition at all cost."

This is the context of that particular passage.

mailmandan · Mar 26, 2019

Argueless said:

For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Jude 1:4

...You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance? But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism. All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. Romans 2:1-16

You continuously judge and condemn believers, so don't be a hypocrite. So according to YOU, the Pharisees along with many other people in various false religions and cults who twist the scriptures and pervert the gospel obey God?

FollowHisSteps · Mar 26, 2019

mailmandan said:

Hi Dan,

Just to clarify. Some have declared their theology
1. We continue to sin but God has forgiven us as we sin
2. We do not have to repent of sin that is already forgiven
3. Sadness over sin is wrong
4. Repentance is a one off event when we came to Christ
5. There is no fear before God, only assurance
6. Conviction of sin in the believer is satan condemning them

I have seen discussions that hold the above positions to a degree I am evil and of satan
if I do not agree with those who hold these views. To my heart they are simply wrong, to
a degree that is simply scriptural, but deeper, it grieves me deeply.

Because often these beliefs are hidden, opposition to them causes much antagonism, which
is expressed as antagonism in an attempt to show how evil the opposition really are.

It appears from your long notes, you do not hold this view, but I thought it worthwhile confirming
that this is so, if you do not mind. God bless you.

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 26, 2019

FollowHisSteps said:

I'm not really seeing anyone saying they "hate a righteous walk," just that there can be ZERO "walk" (righteous or otherwise) before salvation; and that our "walk" is not what gets us "salvation"

FollowHisSteps · Mar 26, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

This raises an interesting point in various interactions.
Different faith models or descriptions put emphasis in different points. It is not that they are
actually different but the faith groups want to bring out that perspective.

Now I know for a fact, certain extreme grace groups believe righteous walking is impossible.
Others hold because of original sin a righteous walk is impossible. We alone are covered by
Christ no matter what we do, ie everything we do is sinful, they would hold.

One can argue, as some do, this is gnosticism in the church.
Now some members will hold to this for calvanistic reasons ie total depravity beliefs.
Others believe that sins definition is so high none can escape its ways, ie be righteous.

Now this is reflected by saying those who say one can walk righteously at any point, cleansed,
purified, washed by the lamb, etc. is pure delusion and hypocrisy. There are people who believe
this and repeatedly will point this out.

So I express these positions as haters of righteous walking, because to them it is just delusion
and hypocrisy. And some will go further and say this is unbelief in Christs work on the cross so
a demonstration of evil and worthy of hell.

So one is going from people who may have an emphasis disagreement to those who oppose
others as if they are their worst enemies.

It takes time to distinguish between the people and their positions, but they are quite distinct,
and their vehemence quite obvious in their comments.

I would suggest you maybe unaware of these variations between contributors.
God bless you.

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 26, 2019

Argueless said:

In 2 Corinthians 11:2, Paul is saying:

"For I am jealous over you [corporate 'you' (that is, PLURAL)] with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you [corporate 'you' (that is, PLURAL)] to one husband, that I [Paul] may present you [understood "corporate 'you' "(PLURAL)] as A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR] to Christ."

[This was Paul's assigned task.]

This is speaking specifically to/for/about "the Church which is His body" (a "corporate" entity / ONE BODY [SINGULAR], so to speak). And that is not the identity of the "10 Virgins [/bridesmaids; PLURAL]" in the Matthew 25:1-13 parable (re: "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER," i.e. their promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth [as an "ALREADY-WED Bridegroom," at that point in the chronology--see Luke 12:36-37,38,40 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal!]) He is not coming to "MARRY" the 10 Virgins (nor even 5!) That parable is with regard to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth [FOR the earthly MK age]

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 26, 2019

FollowHisSteps said:

Are you saying (in the bold), [this thing] "FOR SALVATION" (i.e. in order TO BE saved)? or [this thing] as a RESULT of salvation (i.e. because one IS saved)?

50C1AL0N3 · Mar 26, 2019

when any group—Catholic or otherwise, regardless of what banner they choose to march under—switches the primary emphasis of Scripture from the Pauline doctrine of justification as a gracious gift from Christ conditioned only by faith, to justification as a reward for following the earthly teachings of our Lord (no matter how faithfully), the honest person is compelled to despair.
The stern precepts of the Sermon on the Mount are to be preached, not as a tortuous pathway to salvation, as in Monasticism, nor as a teaching around which to form a semi-ascetic community, as in Anabaptism. The Sermon is to be preached in all of its rigors to destroy any hopes of self-righteousness .

"Philip Janowsky"

YourTruthGod · Mar 26, 2019

dcontroversal said:

You are against obeying Jesus to get saved, and evidently you are against the scriptures.

John 14:23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

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