Why I no longer believe in the penal substitution theory of the Atonement

So if someone were to ask you now, "What is the Gospel" that churches talk about, how would you reply him?

The gospel. Is this Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. From the beginning the Word was with God. The Word was God. God is the Father God is the source. He is the creator of all living. And God created heaven and earth and all living thing by speaking it into existence. God is almighty and so powerful and full of life that even His Word is living. His spoken Word has life. Our speach doesnt. We are mere humans. But God has His Word and He has His spirit. These parts of Him are still Him. But the source of His Spirit and His Word is God the Father. He sent His Word in the flesh and His birth was without conception. It was something supernatural that God had predistined as an answer to our problem which was sin and the consequences thereof. Gods wrath had to be payed. We all fell short of Gods glory and disobeyed God. People choose to follow false Gods and pray to idols or false gods in human form. I believe that is why Jesus was the answer. We could never see the invisible God and many refused to believe since only Prophets were used by God to speak to the people. Or angels were used as well as messengers of God. But nevertheless God knew mans heart. So He sent a savior. One we could feel see and touch and believe in. So now we have someone we can worship and praise to and not fall under idolatry and now there is no excuses for that sin. We have the living Word of God in the Son of God Son of Man. Jesus never honored himself that is why Jesus never claimed to be the Word. John 8:54“Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:”
So its clear to me that Jesus does not boast of Himself because that would mean nothing but rather it is only in God that their can bring honor. Only God the Father can do such boasting. Anyone else who boasts can fall into sin. That was the fall of lucifer, it was pride. Love of oneself. So furthermore Jesus came to show us the way. How we must live and all the things we must stop doing. We destroy one another we hurt one another we put down one another we lie to one another we cheat one another we betray one another. Jesus taught us to love one another. He did away with an eye for an eye. He said turn the other cheek. If someone takes from you your tunic give him your other tunic as well. We are also taught to forgive, so much evil in this world and thats a hard one to live by but Jesus told us that if we dont forgive how can we expect to be forgiven. Jesus ultimately paid the price for teaching this among pharisees who felt He was a threat to their set way of doing things. They crucified Him. And inmocent man and the lamb of God. He died in place of our sins to fullfil the price that our sins required of us. We all fall short of the glory. Jesus taught us to repent and sin no more. The kingdom of Heaven is at hand. His prayer on the cross is the plea for all humanity. "My God why hast thou forsaken me"? Isnt that we all would say when we die and are faced with Hell? Why are you punishing me Lord? Because you are a sinner and the price of sin is death. But the difference between us and Jesus is that Jesus never sinned. "My God why hast thou forsaken me"? God couldnt forsake Him. He was blamess. God couldnt forsake His Holy Word. He had to raise Jesus from the dead. I believe He reached down into the pit or grave and pulled Him out with the Fathers right arms stretched and sat Jesus on His right hand on the throne. Until all His enemies will be His footstool. And all who believe on Jesus Christ shall be saved. God will not forsake you. He didnt forsake Jesus and He will not forake us His children who recieve His baptism of the Holy Spirit. Thats the seal. Thats how we become heirs with Christ and sons of God. We must confess our sins before the Lord and repent. Ask for God to work in your life. He will send you His Holy Spirit if we do this in sincereness and willing to let go of all worldly and sinful desires. The bible says for us to lay hands on one another. This was the way people recieved the Holy Spirit.

You have stated you do not believe Jesus is God in the flesh. You also stated that Jesus is not the penal substitution for our sin debt.

Both are GRAVE heresies. How do you know you are born again since both of the things you are against are necessary for the Gospel unto Salvation?

This hurts my eyes, and my eyes are important to me!!

The gospel hurts your eyes??

Learning to paragraph your points would be good.

So the next question is, do you think the gospel that was preached by Jesus and his disciples included some of the key points you made in that long paragraph of yours?

I would say the key points are the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. 1 Cor 15:3-4

The gospel hurts your eyes??

I do not believe that Jesus is the Father.

I believe Jesus is God. I do not believe that Jesus is the Father. Jesus said "You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.'" (John 14:28). Its clear Jesus is not the Father. But the Father is in Him and all He spoke He spoke as the Father commanded Him. Jesus is the Word of God. In Him was no lie. Was no sin. Jesus was blameless spotless and perfect.

As for the penal substitution, we still have an obligation. And that is to do Gods will if we truly believe.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

We must be doers of the word. Doers of Gods will. Not mere sayers or hearers. And then even death cannot shake nor destroy the foundation which is built on Christ and the promise of eternal salvation. We must be obedient. Children of disobedience are the children of darkness.

So then you are a polytheist?

Look get to your point. You ask a bunch of questions. Do you want to carry dialoge? What are you wanting to say?

John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It says might BE SAVED. BE SAVED. it does not say IS Saved. Theres a difference. Is something will be that means it has not happened it means future sense. We will BE saved yes and I agree we will one day BE in Heaven. I am not in heaven. I will BE given a heavenly body perfect and free from sin, I do not currently live in a heavenly body. So when people say they are saved thats not completely true because we have not died yet. We will BE saved. And the bible shows us who will BE saved. It never says the one who believes IS saved. Thats the point I was trying to make. When people believe they are saved then that takes away their responsibility to do what God commands us to do because the person has been taught they are saved and their sins are forgiven but the bible doesnt teach anywhere that we are saved but rather will be saved. That means its a commitment. If we slack or slumber and you rest assured in the belief that you are saved already, then you may be found when the master comes back and you are unaware and doing things you are not supposed to, under the belief that anything u do wont interfere with the fact that you belive you are "saved". But thats man made doctrine. Bible doesnt say that. The bible says even the demons believe and they tremble. My faith is not that im saved but that God loves me and If I continue to do what God asks then He wont let me perish. He wont allow me to fall. But I have to make the choices God doesnt force us to do the right thing. The Holy Spirit helps us in this. If I just believed I was saved I know how much easier it would be to sin and rest assured that Im saved and thats just not what God shows me to do. I trust God im sorry I cant believe mans doctrine of this "im saved" religion. Its false

I am seeking to understand exactly how you end up believing what you are believing. By asking questions, it will aid in this understanding.

Since people, especially adults, rarely change their minds when being presented with new info, I find its best to understand the other person's perspective, instead of trying to persuade them with mine.

No I believe there is only One God. The book of Isaiah clearly points out that besides God there is no other. God is One. Him having Word and Spirit makes Him still One. We also have speech and a spirit and a body. We are still human in singular form.

Can I ask you a person question? What is it about the gospel that I shared that hurt your eyes? The turn from sin part? Im thinking maybe you have a secret sin that you refuse to let go of. And hearing this hurt your eyes so bad. Are you homosexual?

Ok agreed and I am open to opening myself to questioning but not if you have bad intentions. But if that you being open to listening to my point of view than im all for it. Thats why i joined this site to be able to share in what God has been teaching me.

So what is the question besides everything I mentioned those were the teachings of Jesus. He is our teacher. We are not to follow man but Christ. So Christ is the head. His apostles help spread the gospel and the teachings. What were trying to know as far as what they taught and what my thread said. Can you be more specific?

"Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of God’s glory." Romans 5:1-2 NET

"Δικαιωθέντες οὖν ἐκ πίστεως εἰρήνην ἔχομεν πρὸς τὸν θεὸν διὰ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, 2 δι’ οὗ καὶ τὴν προσαγωγὴν ἐσχήκαμεν τῇ πίστει εἰς τὴν χάριν ταύτην ἐν ᾗ ἑστήκαμεν, καὶ καυχώμεθα ἐπ’ ἐλπίδι τῆς δόξης τοῦ θεοῦ·" Romans 5:1-2 Greek

Δικαιωθέντες (dikaiothentes) starts this sentence in Greek, and means "to justify, to declare to be righteous." (Although in English, we push the οὖν or "therefore" to the front.) So what does Δικαιωθέντες mean? it is an Aorist Passive Participle, expressing antecedent time before the main verb. It could be either temporal or casual. Aorist points to A COMPLETED ACTION. The theological passive, or divine passive again indicates that God has done the action on the subject. In other words, no amount of works can save you.

1. Justification - This first verse in Romans 5, is the first stage in soteriology. In other words, we are justified by the faith God has placed within us.

But where you really go astray is the next stage of our soteriological steps.

2. And that is sanctification.

"Some of you once lived this way. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Cor. 6:11 NET

"καὶ ταῦτά τινες ἦτε· ἀλλὰ ἀπελούσασθε, ἀλλὰ ἡγιάσθητε, ἀλλὰ ἐδικαιώθητε ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι τοῦ κυρίου [d]Ἰησοῦ καὶ ἐν τῷ πνεύματι τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν." 1 Cor. 6:11

ἀπελούσασθε, (apelousasthe), Aorist Indicative Middle, meaning to wash, to wash thoroughly. The aorist refers to a decisive action. Permissive middle (we do NOT have middle in English at all!) occurring with the other passive verbs, because this is the only way this verb appears in the NT.

ἡγιάσθητε (hegiasthete), Aorist Indicative Passive, meaning "to set apart for the use of God, to sanctify, to make holy." It does not refer to the process of ethical development, but means "you were claimed by God as His own and made a member of His holy people."

ἐδικαιώθητε (edikaiothete), Aorist Indicative Passive meaning "to justify, to declare to be in the right."

Notice all three of the verbs in 1 Cor. 6:11 are in the indicative. This means they DO have time, and aorist is usually the past, especially when the same form is used for all three verbs. So:

were washed
were sanctified
were justified

Meaning - these things have already happened through God's work in our lives, nothing of ourselves.

3. Glorification. Finally, we come to the last part of our soteriological progression and that is "glorification." I won't go deeply into it. But, this is the time when either Jesus returns, or we die and meet with him. That is when we are made perfect, and are never tempted again. This is something again we cannot do to or for ourselves, it is totally a work of God.

And this is your mistake, you have deflated or reduced the three separated stages of God working on us, to a one future day, a fly away kind of process, based on your earned righteousness, and your good works and deeds. And yet, so many verses proclaim that we were justified, we were (and our being) sanctified, and one day we will be glorified. Only the last is totally in the future.

So, by taking words and not understanding the Greek meanings of the verb forms, you have created a false theology, which basically comes down to earning your salvation, which is a lie from the devil, to keep God from saving you! Folk theology at best, blasphemy at worst.

I could go on forever, but I'll leave it for now. And in case you think I am making this up, feel free to check out the scholarly Greek tools I used to write this post:

*Mounce, William D. Biblical Greek: A Compact Guide. p 86.

Cleon L. Rogers Jr, & Cleon L Rogers III. The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament.

PS You never used an apostrophe the whole time. So, you have a choice, either I'll or I will. Either that's or that is. My spell check just lit up on my Word Document with reds and all the apostrophes you missed. Perhaps a little more education generally, as well as a couple of years of Master's degree or even PhD Greek would be warranted before you go forming nonsensical and unbiblical doctrines.

Okay, you believe that the Gospel of Grace began when Christ began his earthly ministry, while I believe that it only began after he was resurrected.

My point is that Jesus, and the 12 disciples, were not preaching the same death burial resurrection (DBR) message, during the 4 Gospels.

So I am trying to understand how you end up believing that the DBR was also preached in the 4 Gospels.

Death burial and ressurection. So to you thats the gospel?
To me the gospel is the fact that He came and dwelt among us. He came to bring light and show us the way. That is the gospel.
And I assume the 4 gospels are the 4 accounts of the gospel? To me these 4 accounts reveal the life of Jesus and who He is. Isnt that the gospel? The messiah who gives His life as a ransom for our lives? As well as all He taught us while He dwelt among us, as well as the power of His works and miracles?

... Being saved comes when we die.

The bible tells us the people of God shall be called Holy. So if you are not living Holy, spotless, blamess, and sumbitted to God doing Gods will then how can you call yourself "saved"?