Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him

TheDivineWatermark · Apr 2, 2019

The wheat and the tares are harvested in the exact opposite SEQUENCE from that of our Rapture (you may recall that I've mentioned the "3x" in 2Th2 that the SEQUENCE is referred to (in that passage) regarding our Rapture, and how that is the SAME SEQUENCE as was shown in 1Th4-5 as well)... but here in Matthew 13, the order is in the exact opposite sequence. [(said to the angels) "gather ye FIRST the tares"] Here's a post I made about that, some time back:

[quoting that post]

I believe the 144,000 are "firstfruit" of the WHEAT harvest (the TWO LOAVES; and "baken with leaven" [these are not "the Church which is His body"], per Lev23:17-18, where it similarly states they are "unto the Lord" [like Rev14:4 does],

... and that the "a great multitude... of all the nations [/Gentiles]" Rev7:9,14 & the WHEAT of Matt13 [still-living persons at end of trib] & the Sheep of the nations [/Gentiles] of Matt25 [still-living persons at end of trib]... are the rest of THAT harvest: WHEAT.

"Gather[-ed] into My barn" refers to the earthly MK time period, as "wheat" is harvested by means of a "tribulum" [Daniel 12:12 "BLESSED is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days!" are those who survive to the end of the trib ["the end [singular] of the age [singular]"], and enter in mortal bodies capable of reproducing/bearing children--Any believer/saint who died during the trib will be "resurrected" for that [the MK], per Rev20:4, and these will not be capable of reproducing/bearing children but will be like the angels (who don't reproduce)])

And whereas "WHEAT" is harvested by means of a "tribulum," the earlier harvest is NOT, but instead is harvested by means of "tossing into the air" which separates that which [is not OF the harvest (or "chaff"), for lack of a better way of putting it, at the moment]

[and, again...]

Not all (saints of all times) are the "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]"... For example, "the guests [PLURAL]" are not the "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]"... "the 10 [or 5] Virgins [PLURAL]" are not the "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]"... the "servants [PLURAL; of that particular future time period (FOLLOWING our Rapture)]" are not "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]... "the FRIEND of the Bridegroom" is not the "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" (and JtB died before this point)... There is only ONE [SINGULAR] "Bride/Wife"... and 2Cor11:2 states specifically, "for I have espoused you [plural] to ONE HUSBAND, that I may present [understood 'you'; plural] as A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR] to Christ" (ONE, and "AS ONE"/UNIONED--see also Eph5:30-32; the "G4862 WITH [UNION-with]" thing! This is not what is happening with the FIVE VIRGINS [PLURAL] who go in "with [G3326 - meta - accompanying] Him" into "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [the earthly MK].)

[end of that post]

Hope this helps.

dcontroversal · Apr 2, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

“Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.” (NIV)

The scripture above is one of those highly controversial and misinterpreted scriptures which has led many to the belief that the coming of the Lord and our being gathered together to Him, as taking place during the day of the Lord when the apostasy takes place and after the man of lawlessness is revealed. While others believe that the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him (rapture) takes place prior to the apostasy and the revealing of the man of lawlessness. The purpose of this teaching is in support the latter.

The main reasons for the confusion and the misinterpretation are three fold:

1). The coming of our Lord and our being gathered together to Him

2). Not to become easily unsettled or alarmed

3). The Day of the Lord

Paul begins with “concerning the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him.” Then in verse 2 he segues referring to “the day of the Lord has already come.” As I said, this is apart of the problem in that, those who are reading the scripture are not recognizing Paul’s segue from the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him vs. the day of the Lord, which follows. Though they are in close proximity to one another, they are in fact two separate events.

The “coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him” is a blessed event when the dead in Christ are raised and when the living in Christ will be changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. In opposition, everywhere that we read about the “the day of the Lord” it is described as a time of wrath and fierce anger, a day of distress and anguish, of trouble and ruin, of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness. The first one that Paul mentions is a blessed event. While the second event, “the day of the Lord” will be the worst time in the history of the world. Which one of these events do you think Paul was attempting to comfort the Thessalonians about?

Therefore, the “coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him” vs. “the day of the Lord,” are closely related, yet two different events. In fact, the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him is what kicks off the day of the Lord. That is, once the Lord appears to gather the church, the day of the Lord follows, which is the time of God’s wrath. “That day will close on them like a trap and they will not escape.

So getting back to what I previously wrote, the error is not recognizing the difference between the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him vs. the day of the Lord which follows.

In support of this, I submit to you reason number 2, which is “to not to be easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching that the day of the Lord has already come.” In saying this, Paul is attempting to assure and comfort the Thessalonians and all believers that the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath, has not yet come. However, if we read the scripture as some are interpreting it, i.e. the coming of our Lord and our being gathered together to Him as being synonymous with the day of the Lord, then they interpret the scripture in the following manner and I paraphrase:

“Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him has already come. 3Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.” (NIV)

This is how they are reading and interpreting it, which is the cause of the confusion and misinterpretation.

Now getting back to the support I spoke of, notice that Paul is attempting to assure and comfort the Thessalonians. Well, if Paul was telling them that the coming of the Lord and our being gathered together to Him will not take place until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed and I will insert the wrath of God, then those would not be words of comfort and assurance, but would rather cause the Thessalonians reason for being unsettled and alarmed, because Paul would be telling them that the Lord is not coming to gather them until after the apostasy and after the man of lawlessness is revealed and during the time of God’s wrath. Therefore, Paul’s words of comfort would be in vain if that is what he was telling them.

In conclusion, it is a simple matter of recognizing Paul’s segue from “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him vs. the day of the Lord. The Lord’s coming and our being gathered to Him is an event which takes place first, with the day of the Lord to follow. It is the day of the Lord, the time of God’s wrath, which Paul is reassuring the Thessalonians hasn’t begun yet. Below then is the chronological order of this scripture:

The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him
The day of the Lord, which follows and is the time when the apostasy and the revealing of the man of lawlessness and when the time of God’s wrath takes place, which time period Paul is assuring the Thessalonians had not yet come.

You cannot support it...It is a Grandsville Sharp in Greek...and both Peter and Paul tie ALL THREE SAYS TOGETHER AS ONE DAY........Day of the LORD, CHRIST AND GOD.....

the parousia of Christ, THAT IS TO SAY OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM....THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME UNLESS/UNTIL is clear enough.....!!!

TheDivineWatermark · Apr 2, 2019

^ Verse 1 is talking solely about our Rapture.

It is verses 2 and 3 that are speaking of [the distinct subject of] "the Day of the Lord" (an EARTHLY time period of much duration, with "judgments" and so forth). THIS is what they wrongly believed "IS PRESENT". Paul is telling them not to believe anyone trying to convince them that "the Day of the Lord [an EARTHLY time period, with "judgments"] IS PRESENT" (though EASY for them to BELIEVE, due to the very negative things they were presently and ongoingly experiencing, per 2Th1:4 etc]. It wasn't, and Paul explains why.

dcontroversal · Apr 2, 2019

Melach said:

Exactly.......God begins to deal.with the tares first before taking the saved out....also....

Logically deduced notice...

a. Jesus said there would be NO FLESH LEFT ALIVE if he did not come when he does....indicating VERY DISASTEROUS times before his coming

b. Paul said...WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN UNTO THE PAROUSIA OF CHRIST

c. The G.T. and WRATH are two different events

d. All three gospels state clearly we are gathered AFTER THE G.T., SUN MOON AND STARS going dark etc....

I used to believe the imminent return
...the bible does not support it....too many holes, flaws, rejected scripture, words, etc. to hold that view

TheDivineWatermark · Apr 2, 2019

The two Greek words "G2064 erchomai" AND "G3952 parousia " are BOTH used in EACH of the CONTEXTS: that which pertains to "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" AND that which pertains to "His Second Coming to the earth".

The context determines WHICH ONE is being referred to (and that involves "WHERE" His Presence will be, and "IN WHOSE" presence He will be. These are not identical in each of these two distinct contexts: our Rapture or His Second Coming to the earth [FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom]).

Nehemiah6 · Apr 2, 2019

Melach said:

Parables are parables -- meant to ILLUSTRATE Bible truths -- not to establish doctrine as such. So let's look at the meaning of the parable as explained by Christ Himself:

MATTHEW 13
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

So when are the wicked cast into the furnace of fire (the Lake of Fire). Long AFTER the Rapture and the Millennium ("the end of this world").

This is a reference to the Great White Throne Judgment: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15)

Scripture never contradicts itself. Therefore we need to take all Scriptures into account.

dcontroversal · Apr 2, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

One coming not two....

Was
Is
Is to COME!

and it all jives with one coming when viewed in context and scripturally

oyster67 · Apr 2, 2019

I'm still not convinced that there is a problem with pre-trib rapture. Perhaps some of the Trib Saints will escape the head-chopping-off thing. We just don't know in exact detail how the cookie will crumble. I'm just going to take heed to the part of it that applies to me today.

TheDivineWatermark · Apr 2, 2019

It is my understanding that "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" that the disciples asked Jesus about in Matt24:3 (and His response follows) was based on what He had ALREADY spoken to them about in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (when the angels will "REAP"). I do not believe that is at the GWTj, but at His Second Coming to the earth (just as in the Olivet Discourse). I believe "the FURNACE OF the fire" (Matt13:42,50) is something distinct from "the lake of fire" and correlates more closely with like what was stated in Luke 16:22b-31 (when there was still apparent "TIME" remaining for his brothers to change their destination, unlike at the GWTj time slot):

22b […] the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

TheDivineWatermark · Apr 2, 2019

dcontroversal said:

[as a pre-tribber] I agree He is "coming" only ONE time [again] "to the earth" FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (promised to Israel), and that is the SUBJECT being covered in His Olivet Discourse, many (if not MOST) of His parables, and much of the Gospels' contents.

At the time He spoke His Olivet Discourse, for example, He had not yet spoken ANYTHING regarding our Rapture, and His disciples had only been made aware of what He had thus far spoken to them about: their promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (though, even as far as Acts 1 they were still unaware of its TIMING, as reflected in their Q of him at that time/setting, but they were correct as to its NATURE).

delirious · Apr 2, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

There is no end to this world. Here are some verses from Scripture that support that: Psalm 72: 5,7,17, Psalm 89: 34-37, Psalm 104: 5, Ecclesiastes 1: 4, Jer 31: 35-36, Jer 33: 19-22.

In Matthew 13: 39 & 40 the Greek word translated "world" by the King James translators is "aionos". That word means age and not world. They mistranslated it.

This is why the disciple in Matt 24: 3 were asking Jesus about the end of the age and His coming in relation to the destruction of the temple. The end of the old covenant age which took place in 70 A.D. at the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. That's when the tares were destroyed and the wheat were gathered into his barn.

There is no end of the world or the Christian age.

dcontroversal · Apr 2, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

As a post trib pre wrath believer all things jive with one coming...both the ingathering/rewarding in the sky of the saints, prophets and those that fear God both young and old and his touch down on the Mount of Olives.....ALL THREE days are found at the 7th trump....

The Day of the Lord -->Jesus siezes all earthly kingdoms as Lord

The Day of Christ -->JESUS rewards those gathered in the air

The Day of God -->As God, Jesus pours out his wrath on the world gathered under the banner of the beast

Paul, Peter tie ALL three days together-->1st Thessalonians 4/5 2nd Thessalonians 2, 2nd Peter 3

Jesus is Lord, Christ and God

TheDivineWatermark · Apr 2, 2019

I agree that "the Day of Christ" is when we ("the Church which is His body") are UP THERE "With Him" (reward, etc).

I believe the phrase "the Day of the Lord" (and this is how 2Th2:2 should read) is always and only ever "on the earth" and involves ALL THREE of the following (per how it is used in Scripture, not how Amill-teachings [for example] incorrectly re-define the phrase to mean a "singular 24-hr day") and that it corresponds with the phase "IN THAT DAY" where used in the SAME CONTEXTS (as it does ALSO here in 2Th1-2, both chpts). It covers ALL THREE:

--the 7-yr trib upon the earth (the "DARK" portion)

--His Second Coming to the earth (the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" portion)

--His 1000-yr reign on/over the earth (the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" portion); see how Zechariah 14 uses both phrases (the DOTL and "IN THAT DAY")... and "IN THAT DAY" (meaning the same thing) a number of times throughout the chpt, including v.8c [note how BOTH phrases "the Day of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" are used in the CONTEXT of 2Th1-2 (both chpts), and how the use of "IN THAT DAY" along with "the Day of the Lord," in this context [as always elsewhere] also PROVES it is a lengthy "time period" of much duration, and not the mis-defined way many speak of it as being merely the "singular 24-hr day" of His "RETURN"--that is not correct, biblically)

oyster67 · Apr 2, 2019

Perhaps we should revisit the reason why the tares were not to be torn out prior to the harvest in the first place; it was so as to not disturb the wheatlings. The wheatlings are being kept safe for what? To endure the trib? That doesn't make sense, does it?

dcontroversal · Apr 2, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

I never said it was one 24 hour period....on the contrary I believe it begins a 1000 year period where Christ sits on the throne of David ruling as Lord, Christ and God on this earth....again....The Day of the Lord, Christ and God commences at the 7th trump......ALL three are found in the description of the 7th trump....including the statement -->TIME NO MORE when the 7th trump begins to sound.....and IMV equates to...

a. Time has run out for Gentile world power as Jesus siezes control as Lord

b. Time as we know it no longer applies for the saints as we all receive our eternal celestial bodies and reward as Christ rewards us in the air

c. Time has rum out for the beast and his kingdom as God pours out his wrath

Note...Both Job, Jesus, Martha ALL STATE the resurrection is at the LAST DAY

dcontroversal · Apr 2, 2019

oyster67 said:

7 churches are addressed by Jesus in Revelation....the faithful church is promised to be kept during that time....Many totally disregard the word KEEP WHICH means to PROTECT OR GUARD FROM LOSS OR HARM during the events of REVELATION....it does not mean REMOVE......and for those that say it means remove....what about the other 6 churches...? NO SUCH THING as a split rapture and or those LEFT BEHIND.....the dead in Christ and we which are alive and remain is indicative of ALL in Christ.......

TheDivineWatermark · Apr 2, 2019

dcontroversal said:

Okay, I wasn't meaning to imply that YOU believe "the DOTL" merely consists of 24-hrs, but I'm pointing out for the readers of this thread that its INITIAL ARRIVAL is "as a thief IN THE NIGHT" (the "DARK"/"DARKNESS" portion of a "Day" [prophetic "Day"], which always starts the evening before [i.e. at dark]), which is DISTINCT from the moment Jesus Himself later comes [to the earth] "AS A THIEF. " [NO "IN THE NIGHT" words accompany the phrase "Behold, I come AS A THIEF." in the similar passages when it speaks of HIS PERSON), and this is what Paul is showing in both 2Th2 as well as 1Th4-5.

We will not be present on the earth (that is, when all of the "lightbulbs" are taken UP and OUT of this world

) for the "DARK"/"DARKNESS"/"IN THE NIGHT" aspect when it is present, that is, when "the man of sin be revealed" (which will also be when "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT" at the START of those 7 years [ALL 7 yrs are being covered in the subject of 2Th2, not just half of them!! Its "BEGINNING [v.9a]," its "MIDDLE [v.4]," its "END [v.8b]," JUST LIKE Dan9:27(26) covers all three: its BEGINNING, MIDDLE, END of the "FOR ONE WEEK [7-yrs]"--this is at SEAL #1 [correlating also with the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]"=Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'"]--the SEALS correlating with "the beginning of birth PANGS")]

dcontroversal · Apr 2, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

Okay, I wasn't meaning to imply that YOU believe "the DOTL" merely consists of 24-hrs, but I'm pointing out for the readers of this thread that its INITIAL ARRIVAL is "as a thief IN THE NIGHT" (the "DARK"/"DARKNESS" portion of a "Day" [prophetic "Day"], which always starts the evening before [i.e. at dark]), which is DISTINCT from the moment Jesus Himself later comes [to the earth] "AS A THIEF. " [NO "IN THE NIGHT" words accompany the phrase "Behold, I come AS A THIEF." in the similar passages when it speaks of HIS PERSON), and this is what Paul is showing in both 2Th2 as well as 1Th4-5.

We will not be present on the earth (that is, when all of the "lightbulbs" are taken UP and OUT of this world

) for the "DARK"/"DARKNESS"/"IN THE NIGHT" aspect when it is present, that is, when "the man of sin be revealed" (which will also be when "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT" at the START of those 7 years [ALL 7 yrs are being covered in the subject of 2Th2, not just half of them!! Its "BEGINNING [v.9a]," its "MIDDLE [v.4]," its "END [v.8b]," JUST LIKE Dan9:27(26) covers all three: its BEGINNING, MIDDLE, END of the "FOR ONE WEEK [7-yrs]")]

Another misused verse IMV.....read down two more verses in the Thesslonian text...

BUT YOU BRETHERN are not in DARKNESS THAT THAT DAY SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU AS A THIEF......

Ahwatukee · Apr 2, 2019

Melach said:

Hello Melach,

If I might jump in here. According to scripture, the church, which is a specific group which encompasses every believer from the on-set of the church up until the resurrection. At that time those who have died in Christ up until the resurrection and those who still alive are all apart of the church. Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against." Once the church is competed, then the Lord will gather His church and that will be the completion of the church.

After the church has been removed, there will be a group which no man can count, who referred to as the saints who come out of the great tribulation. This group are those who will have not believed prior to the resurrection of the church, but will become believers afterwards and during the time of God's wrath. These would also qualify as the wheat, with the wicked, those rejecting Christ and worshiping the beast and receiving his mar, as being the weeds.

Here is something to consider regarding the return of the Lord to the earth to end the age: In Revelation 19:6-8 scripture shows the bride of Christ, which is the church, at the wedding of the Lamb where she is receiving her fine linen, white and clean. Then in Rev.19:14, we see the armies of heaven wearing the same fine linen that she previously received and riding on white horses, following the Lord out of heaven. Therefore, how can the church who is already shown to be in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb and following Christ out of heaven, be on the earth to be caught up and gathered? Not only that, but in support of the church already being resurrected in heaven, we have the following scripture:

"They (the beast, the kings of the earth and their armies) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

So regarding the above, once again have scripture demonstrating that the church (called, chosen and faithful followers) will be with Christ as He descends to the earth to end the age.

This whole controversy stems from expositors not recognizing that the appearing of the Lord to gather the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, are two separate events. It is when people make them same events that cause their interpretation of end-time events to be in error.

The resurrection of the church and the living being caught up = takes place prior to God's wrath to remove His church from the earth

The Lords return to the earth to end the age = takes place after God's wrath and to establish His millennial kingdom

Ahwatukee · Apr 2, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

Good day Nehemiah!

Actually, "the day of the Lord" includes the Lord's appearing to gather the church, with the falling away and the revealing of the antichrist to follow. Consider the following:

"Now about the times and seasons (of when the resurrection and catching away takes place), brothers, we do not need to write to you for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night."

The day of the Lord begins with the church being removed from the earth and not just when the great tribulation begins which is from the middle of the seven years to the end when Christ returns to the earth. That's why I said that though the gathering and the day of the Lord are closely related, they are two separate events, with the gathering taking place first and the day of the Lord, which includes the apostasy and the revealing of the man of lawlessness, to follow.

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