Some truth about speaking in tongues, the Holy Ghost, spiritual gifts and 1 Corinthians 14

So you are going to decide my faith walk? You are going to call a gift fake? Are you sure you want to do this? What does what I believe concern you at all? If I am deceived, does that affect you? What do you use as a measurement to qualify real tongues from fake? I am not upset, I just wonder what your agenda is all about.

you will not get an answer as you can see types like that can't separate abuses over the One could have just answered your question.

So John 3 when Jesus talks about water and Spirit isnt He talking about water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism?

I know some people interpret that as the being born of water means to them the birth but I wouldnt consider that because He is answering the question about being born Again. A second time. So we cant go back into our mothers womb like Nicodemus had mentioned. It seemed absurd. John the baptist when he baptized Jesus asked him why he was baptizing Jesus. He saif Jesus I must be baptized of you. So it was clear they knew a Spiritual baptizm was going to take place and Jesus would be the one to baptize us.

Water baptizm = remission of sins/ of the flesh kind of rebirth.
And Spiritual baptizm of the Holy Spirit the fire kind that fills and creates new. New creatures. The fullfillment of a born again in Christ.

Thats what I understand from John 3.

I am sorry bro

1. You never actually responded to my comments about romans 6 and other stuff
2. Your trying to say I have not explained what saved means, When I have explained over and over what saved means (it means we have been saved from the condemnation due to sin) and has since th ebegining of time been applied to all people upon the moment of faith (abraham believed and it was accounted to him at righteousness) not because of any work
3. Paul says in eph, the moment we hear the word of truth, and actually believe in that truth, we are sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT of promise (this is when we get the HS)

I already said, in the beginning, God did what he always does. He uses signs to prove to the world that this new way is going to happen. Then once established, these initial onset of signs generally fade away, and we go by faith (the jews went 400 years without any prophet or any sign before John the Baptist arrived on scene)

In all cases that I see

In acts 2. They were saved the moment they repented and had faith, and through this they received the GIFT of the holy spirit. And BECAUSE they had remission of sin, they were baptized in water.

In Acts 10. Same story

In all of them (even the ones who were baptised the baptism of John were saved immediately on their confession of faith in Christ) and were baptized after

Again, You worry me when you claimed remission of sin was the result of being water baptized. And that our baptism into the death and burial of Christ where our sins was washed away was performed by a sinner immersing us in water. And nto God immersing us into Christ.

This is very worrisome, and more important than even the tongues issue, which has no salvation significants

1. My apologies for not answering fully. I remember answering the first Romans 6 question of water or Spirit, and thought I gave clear explanation as to why, but need to look back to review and answer any additional questions. If I fail to do so, just re-post the particular question or questions you feel I am dodging and I'll do my best to reply thoroughly.

2. I'm not saying you haven't said what you believe it means. But I am saying the following two things outright:

A) You have a conflict in what you are saying (and either don't see it or are afraid to admit and address it). And;
B) You keep refusing to tell me at which verse the people are "saved" (by your definition) in the Acts 8:12-17 account... even though you claim you have no conflict.

3. This is still no answer to the question about Acts 8:12-17.

BTW, You don't have to answer immediately. Men of God in the OT would often take a question to God for considerable amounts of time before returning with an answer. ( Jeremiah 42:4-7, Daniel 9:3-27 & Daniel 10, as well as Lev. 24:10-16 and others). And that practice is still a good idea in the NT. As in... How long was it that John the baptist stayed in the wilderness (alone with God) before opening his mouth...Or Jesus before his ministry...Or how long Saul/Paul spent in Arabia (a wilderness) AWAY from the apostles in order to get a real understanding straight from the source?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

right

reading your post here, I immediately think of John's words in Matthew (3:11)

11I baptize you with water for repentance, but after me will come One more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
12His winnowing fork is in His hand to clear His threshing floor and to gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

the water is symbolic and indicates a turning from sin (as we are baptized to profess our faith, death in Christ and resurrection)

however, the Holy Spirit baptism is literal. interesting that on the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit appeared over the heads of those who received Him, as tongues of fire. fire is metaphorical for so many things in scripture as is water

the confusion some have regarding the gifts and possibly tongues in particular, is that they either do not understand that the baptism in the Holy Spirit is a separate event or they will not receive it and continue trying to juxtapose the sealing at our new birth with the Spirit and the baptism in the Spirit as one and the same when it is not

it's plain that John is talking about 2 events here. John ministered repentance and water baptism but Jesus would baptize in the Holy Spirit with resulting power to live and be effectual for Him

Not to pry in your conversation. But I want to concurr with you. That it is true. We want to spend time with God alone and let him reveal to us in His scriptures what they mean. All the answers are in the bible.

We should never trust man, although God uses men to point us in a direction or different point of view. Such as iron sharpening iron. But we are men so we can sometimes misunderstand something so its best to come to a brother to make sure it lines up. He may have other scriptures to affirm or may find something that conflicts and its back to the drawing board.

And yes I agree it can take time to really get an answer to a difficult question. Patience is a virtue. The bible always must line up in order to be in the correct understanding. Thats why alot of doctrine is wrong because they rely on one or two scriptures when thats not the way it works. All of it must line up. The bible does not contradict itself.

TLC209,

Mainly I just wanted an excuse to say "Hi!"

I've been seeing and reading your posts in this thread, but just didn't have anything particular to add.

The first sincere "Hey God, explain this to me" question I remember posing to God was when I was in about 5th grade. I think I was 23 when he revealed the answer in detail. It was worth the wait.

God loves it when we (try to) challenge him with an honest question. My recommendation is to lovingly present your hardest question(s) to him...THANK him....and depart saying something like "Ok, I've done my part by asking. The ball is in your court. Let's see what you've got." (Remember to ask him for mercy and grace as you do that. ) And remember to ask him as if he is the Living and Loving God who has been waiting eons to for the chance to prove him strong on your behalf. Remember, He is the All-mighty. He is Able! (Thanks, Jesus!)

2 Chronicles 16:9 KJV
For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Yea youre right. And God bless you bro. I enjoy ur post. You started this thread right? Nice job.

I did exactly what you said. Matter of fact I cried out to God. I was getting so discouraged. I needed Him to answer and I left in in his court. I waited for the answer.

As I sat their still head bowed silently in prayer. BAM!! My thoughts started flowing and it was fluid to the pouint it all made sense. I had been reading so much scripture and watching so many sermons and debates concerning the issue, that I had the Word soaked in my head.

It all lined up and I went back to the bible and it all made sense. And I habe kept that approach, minus the crying out. I go to God and ask Him wholeheartedly and He reveals it.

And im this student of God. Im just not sure what is in all this for me. Hes not teaching me all this for nothing. I know He is going to use me for something. So i joined this site as I continue to grow. And I enjoy being able to reach out and fellowship in this platform for now.

Its actually helping me. I notice this site is full of indoctrinated people and its an arena for debates. I wasnt expecting this. But God is using this for a reason. Not sure where God will send me in the future. One of my gifts is teacher.

But how about you?

Yep, that's how God works. When we get serious with him (and give up trying to control it or figure it out ourselves), that's when he moves. Keep seeking him that way and he'll keep moving for, with, and in you. And don't be afraid to cry out when necessary. He hears the cry of his people.

You said it rightly when using the word 'indoctrinated'. That's not a slam on people but when we've heard something repeated for years, by people we trust...it can be HARD to even consider that they (and we) might have been grossly wrong this whole time. That's why it takes prayer to break.

One word of advice...Be more ready to hear than to speak. Our first love is always to be God, not ministry. If we spend enough time in God's presence He'll lead us in what to say (and not to say) when we come to the forums.

You're also right about God being in control with all that is going on. Keep your eyes on him and you'll be OK (more than OK, actually)

Thanks for the compliment on the opening post. I've been in chats and forums for a long time. Made many mistakes. Got some things right.

I see my first duty/title as being 'disciple'. If I keep my focus on fulfilling that, the rest will go fine. If I don't, then any title, position or gift I could claim would only make me look bad.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

""So far a lack of this teaching shows me that this was not a issue, orherwise it would be mentioned and taught"".

Uh,the one that spoke in tongues more than all of them wrote half the nt.

.....and you dismiss it as fluff

Yea no problem. We should encourage one another. Were not alone in Christ. Were here to help one another. So I appreciate the advice.

Im really new to this site so I agree with you. When I first began posting I was hit with conflicting views right off the bat and I took it head on.. but now I rather sit back and let people express their views completely rather than jump the gun.

I see how many views their are on scripture. And Ive been guided into some amazing revelation by another member on here who shared his view with me. So its nice to be able to grow with others who study the bible by what they have to offer.

So thank you for the advice. Its just unfortunate that not everyone is so open minded to grow. Scripture teaches us to be of One mind and One accord. But I see alot of division on this site. Its clear the devil has been working hard at deceiving the sheep. By means of false doctrine. We just have to hope the real sheep hear His voice.

God bless you.

My intent was to just read your reply and head to bed, but it reminded me of how I started chatting. I would take arguments head on. It was exciting to test the limits of what i really knew. There were a lot of debates/arguments where my faith would get beat up. I'd drag myself out of the chat saying "God, I know that what he/she was saying was wrong, but I couldn't find or expose any error. They flat up won that argument (and are still wrong). What should I have done differently? What am I not seeing?" and he'd show me my error.

I guess I should say that at first I admittedly left with my tail between my legs and downcast, but as God would always show me where I was wrong or lacking in some area (within a day or two), that's when I began to seek out those who could challenge my understanding. That way I could learn. I'd even throw out controversial questions to provoke a debate. If they could poke a hole in my belief/doctrine, by asking some question I couldn't answer, then I knew there was something significant I was going to learn if I would just take it to God sincerely in prayer, asking him to open it to me.

Like I said, it could take a while before he would open the truth of it to me (Often I'd not get the chance to redeem myself in the eyes of the person who challenged me) but it was always worth the wait plus the effort it took to seek God earnestly for the real truth of the matter.

ok.. time for bed. LoL.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

I kind of got confused with the last part. The baptizm in the Holy Spirit which is a Spiritual event that can happen in different ways, but as to how the bible identifies this is by laying on of hands by an anointed person (One who has the Holy Spirit). So then by laying on of hands the person can be filled.

Is that the baptizm of the Spirit that you meant? Being filled by the Holy Spirit? I see that as being sealed by the Holy Spirit once the Holy Spirit indwells the person.

The water baptzm is an outward declaration and a cleansing of our sins. Some people Ive heard recieve the Holy Spirit during this process once they come out of the water. Usually the person baptizing has the hand on their head and continues to pray once they are lifted out of the water. And Ive seen a person recieve the Holy Spirit.

Myself I recieved the Holy Spirit when I was being prayed for at the altar. 2 different ministers and the assistant pastor prayed over me. I felt submerged in the Holy Spirit. Everything sounded muffled like I was underwater. Not sure why but it did.

I got baptized in water the next day. I felt so clean after the baptizm. It felt great. So it did feel my sins were washed away. But im confused as to what you meant about the sealing of new birth and Spirit baptizm as seperate? Kind of lost me. Can you explain?

I see that as being sealed by the Holy Spirit once the Holy Spirit indwells the person.

I believe Paul wrote more like 25-30%-not half.

1. My apologies for not answering fully. I remember answering the first Romans 6 question of water or Spirit, and thought I gave clear explanation as to why, but need to look back to review and answer any additional questions. If I fail to do so, just re-post the particular question or questions you feel I am dodging and I'll do my best to reply thoroughly.

2. I'm not saying you haven't said what you believe it means. But I am saying the following two things outright:

A) You have a conflict in what you are saying (and either don't see it or are afraid to admit and address it). And;
B) You keep refusing to tell me at which verse the people are "saved" (by your definition) in the Acts 8:12-17 account... even though you claim you have no conflict.

3. This is still no answer to the question about Acts 8:12-17.

BTW, You don't have to answer immediately. Men of God in the OT would often take a question to God for considerable amounts of time before returning with an answer. ( Jeremiah 42:4-7, Daniel 9:3-27 & Daniel 10, as well as Lev. 24:10-16 and others). And that practice is still a good idea in the NT. As in... How long was it that John the baptist stayed in the wilderness (alone with God) before opening his mouth...Or Jesus before his ministry...Or how long Saul/Paul spent in Arabia (a wilderness) AWAY from the apostles in order to get a real understanding straight from the source?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

well here's the last part of my post again

the confusion some have regarding the gifts and possibly tongues in particular, is that they either do not understand that the baptism in the Holy Spirit is a separate event or they will not receive it and continue trying to juxtapose the sealing at our new birth with the Spirit and the baptism in the Spirit as one and the same when it is not

it's plain that John is talking about 2 events here. John ministered repentance and water baptism but Jesus would baptize in the Holy Spirit with resulting power to live and be effectual for Him

I am saying what you are saying, just saying it a little differently, but the same thing

one is outward and the other, is inward with outward 'results'..ie the gifts etc

my point is TWO events and not baptism in the Holy Spirit when you are saved...people are confused on that

a person can receive being baptized in the Holy Spirit different ways..some with prayer, some at conversion, some when water baptized...God is not confined to one way...another point some want to make this is not correct

I was saved at 5, water baptized at I think 13 or 14 and then prayed myself and received the baptism in the Holy Spirit at 18

I have prayed for others to receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit but not with laying on of hands...they did receive

I was brought up in a church that denied the gifts so it was not likely to happen with someone there praying over me



not to split hairs, which is basically arguing for the sake of it, but my understanding is that we are sealed at conversion and the baptism in the Spirit is a different event

as many people do not believe in the baptism...with or without tongues...it would mean they are not saved if they did not receive

anyway, I can detail that, but no time now

basically, we believe what scripture states

This might seem like a ignorant question but what is your definition of conversion? I dont understand when you say someone is sealed at conversion.

Conversion to me, means that you converted from something else. Another question I would ask is what does it mean to be saved? You mentioned you were saved at 5 years old. My son is 5 years old so Im interested to hear what it means to you.

I was "supposebly" saved as a kid. The whole repeat this prayer and you're saved type of deal. But then I became an atheist as a teenager. I did not believe there was a God. Then later on in my 20s I came to realize there was a God because I became faced with the devil. And I asked Jesus to come into my life by praying and reading Psalms. Which I used to say thats when I got "saved". But really thats when I became a believer.

Needless to say 4 years later after so many attacks of the devil I renounced my faith and fell back to the world. I had lost my trust in God. I was only a baby in Christ and the devil knew exactly what to do and he tried his best to have me aborted. He succeeded for a time, but 6 years later I turned back to Christ broken in my affliction and a witness to all the consequences my sins had brought me and I repented.

Here I am over a year later, stronger than ever in my faith and trusting God, that it seems so careless to have ever believed I was saved prior to this. If I would have died during those times when I was back in the world I dont think I would have made it to heaven. I know that I would have been in hell. Scripture affirms it based on the way I was living.

So I question can someone really not lose their salvation? Does God just not take the persons life and chastizes us instead until we take the correction and walk in obedience? Or was I just not saved to begin with? Scripture says He who started a good work in you is faithful to complete it. So I figure maybe I was a work in progress? I still am anyway which is ongoing until we are in our heavenly bodies.

Either way I look at scripture now and im able to understand it much more clearler now. Especially the parable about the sower and the soil. I was every aspect of that parable. I went through every stage from stoney soil, thorny soil, and now good soil.

So I can relate enough to think consciously can a 5 year old be saved? And if so what does that even mean?

Yes my friend

You gave an answer. You believed it was water

I gave a answer (water)
I gave a response (the passage says we were literally baptized into Christ his death and burial) not in water as a symbol. This was a literal event of spiritual baptism (expanding on what I said earlier) that Paul wanted the Roman church to focus on the fact that we have died to sin. Experience the literal baptism into Christ death and burial. Where our sins were washed. And because of this spiritual fact. We should walk in newness

And unless I missed it. I do not remember getting a response to show how I am misreading this passage