Purity - Without being purified do we know anything

No it got personal here...
Which was a response to

Are there other translation you use other than the KJV?

Once again The Greek word there in Romans 12:2 is
ἀνακαίνωσις
anakainōsis
Thayer Definition:
1) a renewal, renovation, complete change for the better

A renovation is done. A renewal; BEHOLD ALL THINGS ARE NEW AND OF GOD! His Laws were put into our minds and hearts. A complete change for the better. Not an ongoing process.

Not talking about sanctification but the means to sanctification. God's laws in the heart and mind. His Christ; the Word in the Heart and mouth.

Renewal in Romans 12:2 is in the Dative case.
Part of Speech: Noun
Case: Dative (indirect object, "to"; also location "in", "at"; instrument, "with")
Number: Singular
Gender: Feminine


With the above understanding of the dative case with Hebrews 8:10 in consideration I believe renewal should be understood as the indirect object or instrument not locative. So with that I see Romans 12:2 as follows....

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed to the renewal of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
(Rom 12:1-3)

the five Senses are of the flesh. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.




No

Just because GOD has revealed himself to us in Putting His laws in our minds and hearts; His Word; Christ in our hearts and mouths. Though the possibility is there it Doesn't mean that we have reached the point of Perfection; Christ likeness. We have to use the gift.

Not true, that was a response to GB9, not anyone else.

Also, are you a Mod here on this Forum?

I'm not going to bother to quote the person who wrote the quote following. I don't think it matters. I think it represents a mindset present in this forum and while it is convenient for the OSAS crowd, it does not determine the actual meaning, taken out of context, to feed into the 'I am a sinner' mindset that some evidence, rather than the 'I am made perfect in Christ and sin is no longer my master'

don't bother offering the ridiculous and untrue observation that means I think I no longer sin.

this quote:

is that what happens for salvation? or does scripture state the following:

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Romans 10

so now look at the verse* quoted above IN CONTEXT

5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us oursins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

REMEMBER that John was writing to BELIEVERS. he was not writing about salvation. he was writing about relationship...both vertical and horizontal

stop slaughtering the word.

what I don't get, is that if you believe you still sin (not meaning purposefully or habitually while saying you are a Christian) then WHY WHY WHY wouldn't you see what John is saying here?

most likely and I guessing here, some people believe you are so postionally secure you no longer have to admit you still sin other than when arguing with those who do not assume their salvation

that might be extreme, but John was writing to BELIEVERS...are you a believer? do you think the Bible is relevant?

This is a very interesting point. The knowledge of good and evil, means we have evil thoughts,
because to have knowledge is to know what evil is and to go through the steps of what this means.

So I get hit. I feel anger, I want to defend myself, I want to stop the problem continuing, and I need
to understand what is happening. There are options in front of me, many which I will quickly reject,
and the one I choose will be based on my priorities and heart.

So who am I, the choice, and who is my sin or guilt?
Part of discovering that we are sinners, is to know we are capable of the worst atrocities man has
committed, and it is by grace we are not there. And to perceive evil we feel and encompass the
emotions that lead to this path, though only at the beginning of the path.

What defines us, is our obedience to Jesus and His word, His ways, and sowing to the Spirit.
So I see this as overcoming, and overwhelming our limitations with Christs love, that rises above our
confusion of reactions, our conflicting responses, with the heart of God working in us, and bringing
Praise to His Name.

So to be real, to be alive in Christ is to know it all and then choose love and life in Jesus.

Hi cross,

Words and their meaning, has only value for me if I understand Gods meaning.
And I seek to see His meaning by listening to His word, and the Holy Spirit talking
to my heart.

Now you seem to be saying this is me defining what God means.
It is true words only mean what we think they mean, that is called perception and we
all have to learn this skill to live our lives.

There is a joke in such discussions, to say something that represents opposition but the
reader interprets their own way, and to which the group they identify with echo a response,
because of the assumed context but not actual content.

In this world there is a set of defined assumptions, and you either accept them and are ok,
or the enemy and are rejected. God bless you, may you know the beauty of His presence and
the life He gives to our hearts through His love, Amen.

Shadow boxing

I saw two audiences in a debate. Both shared their positions but did not address the conceptual
backgrounds and assumptions involved. Each speak spoke to their audience and both felt they
had won the debate.

But in reality neither had communicated, because the unspoken assumptions validated both positions
to their audience, and the audience did not break out of the assumptions and see the other side.

So in this forum the assumption is we are saved by faith, without reference to behaviour, and this faith
shows itself by pointing to Jesus and saying nothing but failure about ourselves.
The enemy are identified as those who talk about the work God does in them and their achievements
focusing on our response to Jesus, rather than on Jesus and what He has done. This shows they are the
enemy and dooming people to hell through self justification and self worth.

The other side, see coming to Christ is a realisation of our sin and poison we have in our lives, and
desiring through Christ to walk in righteousness and His ways and be part of the Kingdom, following
Gods will. The ministry is in sharing what God has done is us, and to encourage others to battle through
to victory and overcoming, which the Spirit empowers us to do in Christ. For these people talking about
abiding in sin and defeat, is denying the power of Christ in the heart of a believer, or that sin is literal poison
that kills and destroys us.

Put simply these are different faiths, with different expectations and beliefs of the ministry of the Holy
Spirit in our hearts. As a believer, I will walk in the light and declare the word as God ministers it to me,
and shine the light on the differences, because they are life and death in a very real way. And in love I have
no choice, as love itself drives me onward, and the Lords word calls me to share life and love in Him.

If for some this is evil, Praise the Lord He has brought me life in Him to rejoice in His cross and victory
in my heart. So much has He taught me, that I bow in wonder at His grace and His word, Thank you Jesus.

I believe there are two levels of purity.

1. A relative purity in which we can compare amongst ourselves and think "I am not quite so bad, after all, I don't cuss, I don't chew and I don't run with those who do." This looks at sanctification on a human level and sees itself in pretty good standing, especially compared to the Christian who is struggling with various vices.

2. An absolute purity. This is one many legalistic Christians don't get. When our 'goodness or purity' is placed against the absolute purity of Jesus Christ it is like filthy rags...yes, even as Christians. It is the Holy Spirit who slowly bit-by-bit convicts us of our impureness through His wooing us to Christ where we become convicted, confess and are washed in His Blood.
Often the problem is, where the relative purists, thinks he is so pure, he struts around playing Holy Spirit and judging others of their impurity while failing to see his own.

They are classic examples of the 'speck/log in the eye' and 'Pharisee/publican going to the Temple to pray' scenarios.

But when it comes to God's Word(s) we must seek out His intended meaning and not what we 'think' He meant.

There is only our understanding of the possible meanings involved. We must always look at
all the interpretations and let God guide us through. Almost everything is multi-layered and
has inter relationships that only time will illuminate.

Purity - fresh water or salty water.
If we have lost our saltiness, we should be thrown out and trampled.

Saltiness can be preserving aspect, bringing focus on important issues.
Fresh water is pure and brings like, while salty water brings death.

I am therefore at a loss at this limited view of the infinite delivery of Gods
perfect and eternal word.

No the Holy Spirit illuminates our understanding to His Word. He is the Author, He has an intended meaning in what He says, He has given us His Spirit to understand. This is not a matter of Hegelian dialectic of thesis/antithesis.

But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1Co 2:10-14)

I wish I could agree with you. But there is never one understanding of anything.
Analytical thought tends to believe 1 + 1 = 2.

But what each 1 is, how you define the unit of a concept or item, or group, matters.
When you group things together, the effect is not always 2, but a multiple or a destruction
of the very thing you hoped to build.

The whole of creation cries out as to the vastness of variation, of subtle differences that
can mean some things work while others fail. Scripture is such an open book, which is why
we have so many denominations and groups who claim it as their foundation, yet discover
even at the simplest level, things do not always work out as they intended.

Pauls answer to this question was

15 All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think
differently, that too God will make clear to you.
Phil 3

Love and loving is our heart through Christ Jesus and by Him.

Boundaries, areas that do not change, are as important as things that have many intricasies.
So what does not change is sin, Jesus and the cross, repentance, and forgiveness.
Our biggest area for change is our hearts. And as our hearts change and grow in Christ so what
speaks to us moves, and how much insight we have expands.

so, perception is reality, and 1+1 does not always equal 2.

this reminds me of the classic 1984 . when the main character had been tortured for weeks, the government agent held up 2 fingers and asked Winston how many. Winston said " however many you say".

so, good luck and God bless you peter. I am now leaving planet peter, I am not and will not ever live in your delusional world, where feelings determine reality and word definitions do not matter...

Hi gb9,

So let me put something simple to you.
Through the cross we have salvation? Through death we find life.
Through giving up all we have, we gain everything we could ever want.

In sorrow we find the greatest joy, in pain we understand the meaning of the greatest love that
was given, in becoming a servant we are exalted to be co-heirs with the creator of the universe.

How can we know what we will become, if we hold on tightly to our past and its hurts and lessons
that moulded us in the world? Sinners can never grasp the nature of Jesus and the Kingdom of
heaven until they know purity in their hearts.

8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Matt 5

Until you grasp this is something vast and beyond the worlds wisdom, foolishness, yet the way
of life, it will always be a mystery.

Jesus said something that becomes clearer every day.

I went into a church and a guy looked at me as if I was not welcome, and was trespassing.

3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
Matt 7

People have quoted this verse about judging many times.
And the plank is impurity. Without purity and simplicity within,
what is important is very different from what really matters.

Imagine you are 100% an individual, but only live in 10% of your
own personality. The rest is a mystery. So it is with most sinners,
because who they truly are is a learnt experience in family and society,
automatic responses which fire off without thought as to the consequences
or the impact. And in this state often very brutal and judgemental positions
are taken which help the individual stay happy and secure.

But these very positions exist not because they are true but because it keeps
their heart stable and undisturbed. And that is the only way to stay functional.

But Jesus offers a different solution. And it is the cross, love without end and
beginning to learn who we really are, and how we should react to others from
a place of love and security.

IMO. you understand the problem...believe it or not I have addressed it myself in times past to no avail

Neither side is listening to the other and the 'other side' is the enemy etc

I don't understand it.

let me say this-

the way I do this is this- we can talk about surface beliefs all we want, but what does that really accomplish ? I want to know and talk about core beliefs.

and, I do try to understand what others say. followhisteps said in the last 24 hours that " perception shapes reality " and 1+ 1 does not always equal 2.

and, in another thread, he linked to got questions. org to get the definition of sin.

so, does it seem possible to have a realistic, productive convo with those beliefs at the base of that person's thought process.

exactly

it is a journey, and most often a difficult one, to see this, understand it, and realize that
work on our SELF is the missing ingredient to the actualization of the life Jesus says we
have in Him

it isn't easy to forgive from the heart. it isn't easy to say to God 'examine me and help me
to know my heart'. I don't think we really want to know but God is gracious and will answer
that prayer personally. we are individuals to Him if we are not to each other

well I agree in principal

but one person's core belief is another's blasphemy it would seem. not trying to be funny

it takes SELF examination and seeing ourselves in the mirror of our own sin as a start

when you have someone who is unteachable and will not budge and just gives knee jerk responses, it is difficult and probably
even more so on a forum like this

I have counselled people..biblical counselling...and it is remarkable how much people will dodge and deflect to avoid actually dealing with themself

we desperately need the Holy Spirit and that is why He was sent. the gifts are for the building up of the body of Christ but this doctrine that says this or that is no longer in operation, stymies the action of the Spirit of God and then we have the flip side where people go hog wild and emotionally out of control

I'm open to what a person has to say and I know how to listen but deliberate goading and mocking such as is often done here is not a gift of the Holy Spirit and frankly the opposite of how a Christian should respond. we are on either the offensive or the defensive it seems and neither is a good position

don't let me put you off what you want to say. I'm thinking 'out loud'