God, Romans 8:28, and Good and Evil

Romans 8:28 says, “And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.” Whose good? His good. What does He consider to be good? It is his Creation, including the creation of Adam and Eve. And He commanded them to be fruitful and multiply, so they turned into multitudes of people, commissioned to the same command. God sees as good anything that would preserve His Creation.

Numbers 23:19 says, “God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?” What to make of this passage in light of the fact that everything we see, including us, is His Creation?

It is that good and evil to man is different from good and evil to God. We cannot hold God to a good and evil standard, since by virtue of His Creation He is above good and evil. His one agenda of preserving His Creation is all that matters. It is man who is evaluated solely in terms of good and evil.

Whatever man does toward preserving God’s creation is good, and whatever he does to subtract from God’s Creation is evil. But in the scheme of things, the ends to God is justified by the means of man, whether those means are good or evil.

Case in point is Jacob’s son Joseph who was thrown into a pit and by his brothers, who sold him to passing traders. Clearly, what Joseph’s brothers did to him was evil, for reasons that include showing dishonor to their father Jacob, who favored him. And when they died, this would be taken into consideration by God in determining whether they deserve to be in His House. But what they did to Joseph ultimately worked to God’s purpose. If they didn’t sell Jacob, Jacob wouldn’t have ended up in Egypt. If Jacob didn’t end up in Egypt, his family wouldn’t have been saved by the famine that purged the countryside, and there would be no Twelve Tribes.

If there wasn’t the Twelve Tribes, what then? I guess God would have to make His Covenant with other people, in order that His creation of Adam and Eve be preserved.

We are evaluated in terms of good and evil. Does God compel anyone to commit evil? How far does our predestination go? Did He make the Romans crucify Jesus? If they didn’t crucify him, his purpose of enabling the people of the world to be saved may not come to pass. But as it were, his crucifixion heightened a movement that worked for good, God’s good, according to His purpose.

If there seems to be a disconnect between the actions of people who ultimately work together for God’s purpose, and whether God manipulates the actions of people, such is one of those things that cannot be explained among us. We can only look to Proverbs 3:5 which says to trust in God with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding.

I'm gonna beg to differ with ya here, dear brother as God is good to those He called for His purpose and plans. God Himself is very good and those who love Him know it.

God's good is our good, too. It's one and the same. He puts His desires in our hearts and makes them our desires. He gives us the mind of Christ that we have His perception of spiritual reality. He puts His Spirit in us and conforms us more and more into the image of Jesus Christ.

The whole reason God created us in the first place is for His good pleasure - God takes pleasure in us and in our taking pleasure in Him. It's a love relationship. He makes us one with Him.

If God does all that, then why did He need Jesus to come down to save us?

You answered your own question with the last line of your OP. "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and don't lean on your own understanding."

Why did God need Jesus?? God IS Jesus! ("If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father.") He came down in flesh form that we might be identified with Him. We are crucified with Christ and He now reigns in us. We are saved from ourselves (our carnal mind, our sinful flesh) when we look to Christ and believe He makes us one with Him.

Hi Newton, the Father does all those wonderful things for those of us who are, or who will be, His own, those who are the called .. Romans 8:28, who have been reconciled to Him, and justified by Him, by faith in the works that His Son did for us (His life, His death, and His resurrection), and in the Father's promise to save us on that basis alone, of course

Until Jesus had lived and died and rose again for us, until we were reconciled to God by His death, and justified by His blood, God was our "Enemy" .. Romans 5:8-10.

~Deut

.

Your OP is somewhat confused. "Preserving His creation" is NOT God's primary agenda.

He knows that He will literally burn up this earth and its atmosphere with a purifying supernatural fire, in preparation for the New Heavens and the New Earth. So why would He be so concerned about preserving that which He will destroy?

Calling out a people for Himself from all the inhabitants of the world is His primary agenda.

Simeon [Simon Peter] hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. (Acts 15:14)

God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: (Acts 17:24-27)

Whose good? OUR good


~Deut
p.s. - v28 may be somewhat easier to understand in a different translation. For instance, here it is in the NIV-UK.

Hi again @newton3003, here's another passage to consider about God working for our good. Whether things seem good or bad in the moment that they occur, we know (because of His word and by faith) that He is continually working ~all~ things together for the good of those who love Him


~Deut



.

The main problem I see with this kind of reasoning is that, people will think, "God is making me sick from this illness to "make me like his Son".

Hi Guojing, our need is to trust God (and His promises to us) .. come what may .. knowing that He works ALL things (both good and bad things) together for our good in the end, yes

I don't believe that God chooses to "make people sick". On the other hand, I'm certain that He does bring good out of all of the bad things that happen to us naturally in this life, including illnesses!

However, if He did choose to (intentionally) beset one of His children with an illness of some kind, He would be doing so for his/her good (and perhaps, through them, acting for the good of many others as well .. like He did with Job), such that they would be made even more into the image of His Son as a result. If something like this ever happened, shouldn't we, as Christians, always consider it to be a good thing

Thanks!

~Deut
p.s. - here's section 1 of 6 from Institutes about this very topic. I think that you may find it interesting to consider (and if you find it interesting enough to want to read the additional sections on this topic, just let me know and I'll be happy to post them).

I am curious, how would you respond if you hear a Christian saying, "I believe God choose to beset me with a sin (could be any sin, but the favorite that people use is always adultery), in order to teach me some important lessons?"

Hi again Guojing, since I take God at His word, I would say that such a thing is impossible (if I heard a Christian saying such a thing). God doesn't "tempt" anyone, much less "cause" us to sin


In fact, not only does God not tempt or cause us to sin, He actively works in our lives to provide a way of escape from every temptation that we face (so that we can choose to avoid falling into sin whenever a temptation comes our way), as well to make sure that no temptation that besets us is too much for us to handle (see 1 Corinthians 10:13 below)

~Deut

.

Fair enough. But you don't think that sickness came to this Earth because of Adam's sin? When God rested from his creation in Genesis, do you think he created sickness as well?

Romans 5:12 explained that death only came in when sin came in thru Adam. Death is like the final stage of sickness. So if you agree that God will not cause us to sin, why would think that, likewise, God will cause us to be sick?

The following touches upon the subject well. I believe God heals us, and sometimes He allows us to have certain maladies. I know when I lost much of my sight I thankedHim, still do, and considermyself honored to be counted with the Patriarchs who also were dim-sighted in their alter years.

Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Hi again @Guojing, I believe that sickness, decay, and death resulted from our progenitors' first sin in the Garden of God (Romans 5, that you already mentioned, is a good reference). God didn't cause our first parents to sin, they made that choice all by themselves, just like we continue to do today, sadly. So they .. not God .. are the ones who are responsible for the sickness, decay and death that now plagues all of us (as well the entirety of space/time).

However, there is good news! We have a Redeemer

I've gotta go for now, so I bid you both farewell and Shalom (but I hope to return tomorrow in the afternoon, Dv).

God bless you!

~Deut

Who are the people? The people are His creation.

Amen, brother Guojing. I think often the problem is when we attempt to fit God into the scriptures according to our own understanding, rather than looking directly to God. I blame God for nothing. He is good and kind. This world has already been established by Him, as is our lives in Christ. The Lord would never go out of His way to afflict us with sickness or tempt us with sin, although I know He is always with us and in us, with every circumstance in this life, and will never abandon us, be disappointed in us, or tire of guiding us as a Loving Father.

After walking with God for over 40 years, struggling with my own thoughts of fear and doubt, going through tremendous battles of both sickness and weakness in the flesh, God has proven to me over & over that He is not interested in punishing me, or allowing harm to come to me just to prove a point. He proved Himself way holier, more mightier, more wonderful, and much greater than that! Sin, sickness, and grief just happen to be in this temporary life because it’s a temporary realm. God is greater still! He is holy, perfect.

We will never fit God into a box or mold Him according to our tiny grasp of His Word. Just like David said in Psalms, “Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, it’s so high I can’t reach it!” We can't recognize nor relate to God in our intellectual understanding. He doesn't compute with our flesh. We know Him in spirit, He knows us in spirit, because the Spirit of Jesus Christ unites us with Him.

Our Good.. And that Good is the ultimate Good.. Which is eternal life with God in His perfect eternal existence..

Nothing better for us then that..

Thanks, so I hope you can see why I always find the statement "God made someone sick, allow someone to be sick, etc" to be problematic.

If sickness came thru sin, saying those statements is like saying "God made someone sin, allow someone to commit sin etc".