NDEs and ADCs: Their Apologetic Value for the Christian Faith

posthuman,: "you miss the point. your stated point with this thread, in post #1, is that talking about this is literally more useful than talking about the Bible or the gospel for purposes of evangelizing."

I have spent months witnessing to the Gospel in the streets and door to door. Have you? so how many souls have you won to Christ? You obviously fail to recognize the role of pre-evangelism in saving the lost. Sharing about NDEs and ADCs opens skeptical minds about the reality of an afterlife and prepares the heart to hear biblical truth, which they would otherwise dismiss without an honest hearing. The evidence for an afterlife from NDEs and ADCs is superior to the evidence for Christ's resurrection; an precisely for that reason it opens minds to the evidence for eyewitness testimonies to Christ's resurrection.

posthuman: "however a man who is unquestionably immersed in it and has made it his career, to no small gain of earthly riches,

So you reject Billy Graham's role as the most prolific soul winner in history simply because the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association took in a lot of money? Moody was a philosophy professor and a doctor; professors and doctors make money just as authors do. You are offering a lame excuse to divert attention away from the actual case histories Moody documents.

posthuman: "he [Moody)...mocks 'fundies..."

Again you pontificate from abysmal ignorance and have probably read none of Moody's books. Quote Moody mocking Fundamentalist
What you don't get is:

(1) Even biblical revelation is shaped by contemporary culture and cannot be understood apart from it.
(2) The pleasant nature of NDEs does not signify the patients' ultimate destiny. Swedenborg was the greatest explorer of the heavens and hells of all time and no one has produced verifications superior to his, and yet, he insists that after the dying are taken to Paradise and revel in its beauty, many of them nevertheless ultimately wind up in Hell!

posthuman: "this man [Dr. Raymond Moody) is the epitome of your argument, yet he is the antithesis of your conclusion. how is that? "

Fundamentalists like you love to pontificate from ignorance. You clearly have neither carefully read my case histories nor watched the posted videos. If you had, you would realize that Moody's cases amount to a trivial proportion of the evidence, much of which is collected from Christians who have had NDEs and ADCs and from unbelievers who are converted through their NDEs. Do you actually believe that Satan wants to encourage skeptics to become born again Christians?


posthuman: "i continue to pray for whatever people you have 'shepherded' in your life."

That patronizing comment betrays your bitterness at the unbelievers I have influenced to consider or embrace the Gospel by discussing paranormal evidence for an after life such as that provided by NDEs and ADCs.

It sounds like you are trying to disqualify me now.
Again the Apostle Paul has given me warning about such things in Colossians 2:18.
According to Colossians 2:18 I am not to let someone, who goes on in detail about visions, disqualify me.

MH, you don't seem to understand what i am saying at all, and are only responding with illogical vitriol

maybe a picture will help:

First, you are oblivious to the beliefs of Paul's opponents in Colossians. Actually read the text! He is warning about "worship of angels" and we know that angel worship was a problem with the Judaism of Asia Minor. As already noted, many Jewish Christians even identified Christ as the Archangel Michael!

Peter applies Joel 2:28 to "the last days" and we can be said to live deeper into the last days than Peter! Why do you reject what God's Word teaches about the gifts of the Spirit?

You are really living up to your name as a madman!

Your obsession with this paranormal, occultism nonsense has driven you insane! That is what demons do when they find a stronghold.

So you dismiss Jesus as a madman for borrowing practices from Greco-Roman magic like the use of clay, spittle, and oil as props or gimmicks for healing? Do you dismiss Paul as a madman for anointing aprons and handkerchiefs of absent sick people--a practice borrowed from contagious magic- and then returning them to the sick person so that they can be healed? Or are you bliesfully ignorant of the presence of these practices in God's Word? And I guess you resent it when God uses NDEs to save atheists and Muslims, as I have documented in this thread?

MATT. 23:12.
And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

You directly addressed me, and then put words into my mouth. You are not just mad, you are a liar and a deceiver.

Your charitable spirit is on display for all to see! No, I merely drew the logical inference from your occult charge. Jesus borrowed from contemporary occult magical practices. So by accusing me you are accusing Him!

You are dumber than a doorknob. Jesus did NOT borrow from occultic magical practices. He is God and he didn't have to resort to some mundane practises. Do you know that he created and maintains the world??

"15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation,
16 for all things in heaven and on earth were created in him—all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers—all things were created through him and for him.
17 He himself is before all things and all things are held together in him.
18 He is the head of the body, the church, as well as the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself may become first in all things.
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in the Son
20 and through him to reconcile all things to himself by making peace through the blood of his cross—through him, whether things on earth or things in heaven." Col. 1:15-20

Do you really think that Jesus, second person of the Trinity had to use parlour tricks to heal people, or feed the hungry? Or raise the dead, for that matter? No, read the verses from Col. 1:15-20 again. Then learn about who Jesus Christ is. You keep bragging you are a pastor, but you don't have a clue who Jesus is. Were you in some apostate or heretical cult?

You take the cake for ignorance where understanding who Jesus is, what he came to earth to do, and that he is Almighty God, and doesn't need all this New Age occultic lies to do the things he did.

PS I am also a pastor, working on a PhD in theology. You are so facile to see through. And I am going to report all your attempts to assign Jesus to being merely another guru or miracle worker, demeaning him, from his true place as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Angelia: ""You are dumber than a doorknob. Jesus did NOT borrow from occultic magical practices. He is God and he didn't have to resort to some mundane practises. "

Why do Fundamentalists who are illiterate in modern biblical scholarship resort to vicious ad hominems to compensate for their ignorance?

Angela: "Do you know that he created and maintains the world??"

What the preexistent God the Son can do is irrelevant to the question of what the Gospels teach that the historical Jesus actually did.
God's Word teaches that Jesus "emptied Himself" of His divine prerogatives to become fully human and thus became incarnate with all our human limitations, including limitations in power, knowledge, and wisdom. Do you actually need me to document the biblical support for this claim?

In his scholarly book "Jesus the Magician," Morton Smith documents Jesus' borrowing of techniques popular in Greco=Roman and Egyptian magic and the resulting Jewish charge that Jesus is an occult magician. Similarly, in his book "Hellenistic Magic and the Synoptic Tradition," John Hull documents Jesus' and Paul's use of magic techniques. Hull has a whole chapter on the use of spittle in Greco-Roman magic and Jesus' use of this occult practice. To quote Hull,


"Spittle is used in 3 of the miracles. In John 9.6 paste made from the spittle of Jesus and clay is smeared on a man's eyes; in Mark 8.23 and 7.33 spittle is used to cure blindness and dumbness (p. 76)."
"The spittle (like the oil in Mark 6.13) is to be regarded as the vehicle of the miraculous power...The custom of applying (spittle) it with incantations seems to have led the Rabbis to denounce its use (p, 159)."

You need to ask yourself why Jesus would use techniques from magic instead of just laying on hands or speaking the healing word, as he does on many occasions. He does so to accomodate Himself to cultural expectations to help create healing faith.

But this thread is about NDEs and ADCs, both of which fit within the category of visions, which fulfill the prophecy of Joel 2:28 about visions as a sign that "the last days" have begun (Acts 2:17).

well,
there is the Wisdom of God, and there is the wisdom of man - which is superior???
also,
let us not forget that none of us have any wisdom of God unless He bestows it upon us -
the ultimate problem is, 'can YOU tell the DIFFERENCE???