Are you operating in Faith that God doesn’t recognize?

posthuman · May 30, 2019

Lanolin said:

“Where is the one who has been born King of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship Him.”

(Matthew 2:2)

“You of little faith,” He said, “why did you doubt?”

And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. Then those who were in the boat worshiped Him

(Matthew 14:31-33)

Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

“Who is He, Sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in Him.”

Jesus said, “You have now seen Him; in fact, He is the one speaking with you.”

Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped Him.

(John 9:35-38)

When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.

(Matthew 28:17)

While He was blessing them, He left them and was taken up into heaven. Then they worshiped Him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.

(Luke 24:51-52)

Dino246 · May 30, 2019

MessageOfTheCross said:

Please study this!

"Apply the Cross to the Problem"

2 Kings 6:1-7 King James Version (KJV)

And the sons of the prophets said unto Elisha, Behold now, the place where we dwell with thee is too strait for us.

Let us go, we pray thee, unto Jordan, and take thence every man a beam, and let us make us a place there, where we may dwell. And he answered, Go ye.

And one said, Be content, I pray thee, and go with thy servants. And he answered, I will go.

So he went with them. And when they came to Jordan, they cut down wood.

But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.

And the man of God said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick, and cast it in thither; and the iron did swim. ("The sick," no matter how crude, was symbolic of the Cross of Jesus Christ. We learn from this the tremendous lesson of the Power of Calvary. Every single blessing received by the Child of God comes through Calvary. Elisha applied the Cross to the problem. Regrettably, most in the modern Church have set the Cross aside, resorting to other things, which only bring death.)

Therefore said he, Take it up to thee. And he put out his hand, and took it. (The Cross is a Finished Work. Consequently, all the Believer has to do is simply stretch out his hand and take it. All that the Cross represents is ours for the asking.)

We as Believers apply the Cross of Christ, i.e., The Finished Work, i.e., The Blood of Jesus, to every problem by placing and maintaining simple Faith, the size of a mustard seed in who Christ is, and what Christ has done at the Cross of Calvary where the victory was won. When this is done, the LORD does for you as He told Moses in Exodus 6:1, "Now watch what I do to Satan, now watch what I do to the problems, now watch, what I do to your health, now watch what I do to your marriage, now watch what I do to any and everything that comes against you. Now Shall you see what I will do to...Glory be to God.

JSM

“THE BITTER WATERS

Exodus 15:22-26

22 So Moses brought Israel from the Red Sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur; and they went three days in the wilderness, and found no water. (God tests Faith in order to strengthen and enrich it.)

23 And when they came to Marah, they could not drink of the waters of Marah, for they were bitter: therefore the name of it was called Marah. (Marah means “bitter.” Pink says: “While the wilderness may and will make manifest the weakness of God’s Saints and, as well, our failures, this is only to magnify the Power and Mercy of Him Who brought us into the place of testing. Further, and we must understand, God always has in view our ultimate good.” The bitter waters of Marah typify life and its disappointments.)

“24 And the people murmured against Moses, saying, What shall we drink? (Three days before, the Children of Israel were rejoicing on the shores of the Red Sea. Now, some 72 hours later, they are “murmuring against Moses.” Such presents a lack of Faith. “Tests” brought upon us by the Lord portray what is in us. Regrettably, it doesn’t take much to bring out the unbelief.)

25 And he cried unto the LORD (Moses set the example; there is no help outside of the Lord, but man, even the Church, seem to find difficulty in believing this); and the LORD showed him a Tree (the “tree” is a Type of the Cross [Acts 5:30; 10:39; 13:29; Gal. 3:13; I Pet. 2:24]), which when he had cast into the waters, the waters were made sweet (we must put the Cross into every difficulty and problem of life, which alone holds the answer; only by this means can the bitter waters be made “sweet”): there He (God) made for them a Statute and an Ordinance, and there He proved them (tested them! We must understand that God doesn’t give victory to men, only to Christ; His Victory becomes ours, as we are properly in Him [Jn. 14:20; Rom. 6:3-5]),

26 And said, If you will diligently hearken to the Voice of the LORD your God, and will do that which is right in His Sight, and will give ear to His Commandments, and keep all His Statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon you, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD Who heals you. (It is demanded that all these “Statutes” and “Ordinances” be perfectly kept; however, no man can boast of such; Christ has perfectly kept all the Commandments and, as our Substitute, kept them perpetually. Looking to Him, we can claim this blessing. As well, the “healing” Promised here has to do not only with physical diseases but, as well, of emotional and spiritual diseases. The Cross is to be put into the bitter waters of these problems, whatever they might be. They can then be made sweet. The name “LORD,” in the Hebrew, as used here, is “Jehovah-Ropheka,” which means “Jehovah, the Healer.” Jehovah has proven Himself as the Deliverer of Israel, and now He proclaims Himself as their “Healer.”)”

Faith never retreats! Faith sees the problem and say problem, "there has never been a problem that my God has not been able to solve; there has never been a sickness that my God can not heal; there has never been a disease that my God can not rebuke!"

JSM

Irrelevant to the post to which you responded.

Plus, telling people to study Swaggart's material is off-base. This is a Bible Discussion forum, not a Swaggart discussion forum.

posthuman · May 30, 2019

MessageOfTheCross said:

Please study this!

"Apply the Cross to the Problem"

2 Kings 6:1-7 King James Version (KJV)

And the sons of the prophets said unto Elisha, Behold now, the place where we dwell with thee is too strait for us.

Let us go, we pray thee, unto Jordan, and take thence every man a beam, and let us make us a place there, where we may dwell. And he answered, Go ye.

And one said, Be content, I pray thee, and go with thy servants. And he answered, I will go.

So he went with them. And when they came to Jordan, they cut down wood.

But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.

And the man of God said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick, and cast it in thither; and the iron did swim. ("The sick," no matter how crude, was symbolic of the Cross of Jesus Christ. We learn from this the tremendous lesson of the Power of Calvary. Every single blessing received by the Child of God comes through Calvary. Elisha applied the Cross to the problem. Regrettably, most in the modern Church have set the Cross aside, resorting to other things, which only bring death.)

Therefore said he, Take it up to thee. And he put out his hand, and took it. (The Cross is a Finished Work. Consequently, all the Believer has to do is simply stretch out his hand and take it. All that the Cross represents is ours for the asking.)

We as Believers apply the Cross of Christ, i.e., The Finished Work, i.e., The Blood of Jesus, to every problem by placing and maintaining simple Faith, the size of a mustard seed in who Christ is, and what Christ has done at the Cross of Calvary where the victory was won. When this is done, the LORD does for you as He told Moses in Exodus 6:1, "Now watch what I do to Satan, now watch what I do to the problems, now watch, what I do to your health, now watch what I do to your marriage, now watch what I do to any and everything that comes against you. Now Shall you see what I will do to...Glory be to God.

JSM

“THE BITTER WATERS

Exodus 15:22-26

22 So Moses brought Israel from the Red Sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur; and they went three days in the wilderness, and found no water. (God tests Faith in order to strengthen and enrich it.)

23 And when they came to Marah, they could not drink of the waters of Marah, for they were bitter: therefore the name of it was called Marah. (Marah means “bitter.” Pink says: “While the wilderness may and will make manifest the weakness of God’s Saints and, as well, our failures, this is only to magnify the Power and Mercy of Him Who brought us into the place of testing. Further, and we must understand, God always has in view our ultimate good.” The bitter waters of Marah typify life and its disappointments.)

“24 And the people murmured against Moses, saying, What shall we drink? (Three days before, the Children of Israel were rejoicing on the shores of the Red Sea. Now, some 72 hours later, they are “murmuring against Moses.” Such presents a lack of Faith. “Tests” brought upon us by the Lord portray what is in us. Regrettably, it doesn’t take much to bring out the unbelief.)

25 And he cried unto the LORD (Moses set the example; there is no help outside of the Lord, but man, even the Church, seem to find difficulty in believing this); and the LORD showed him a Tree (the “tree” is a Type of the Cross [Acts 5:30; 10:39; 13:29; Gal. 3:13; I Pet. 2:24]), which when he had cast into the waters, the waters were made sweet (we must put the Cross into every difficulty and problem of life, which alone holds the answer; only by this means can the bitter waters be made “sweet”): there He (God) made for them a Statute and an Ordinance, and there He proved them (tested them! We must understand that God doesn’t give victory to men, only to Christ; His Victory becomes ours, as we are properly in Him [Jn. 14:20; Rom. 6:3-5]),

26 And said, If you will diligently hearken to the Voice of the LORD your God, and will do that which is right in His Sight, and will give ear to His Commandments, and keep all His Statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon you, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD Who heals you. (It is demanded that all these “Statutes” and “Ordinances” be perfectly kept; however, no man can boast of such; Christ has perfectly kept all the Commandments and, as our Substitute, kept them perpetually. Looking to Him, we can claim this blessing. As well, the “healing” Promised here has to do not only with physical diseases but, as well, of emotional and spiritual diseases. The Cross is to be put into the bitter waters of these problems, whatever they might be. They can then be made sweet. The name “LORD,” in the Hebrew, as used here, is “Jehovah-Ropheka,” which means “Jehovah, the Healer.” Jehovah has proven Himself as the Deliverer of Israel, and now He proclaims Himself as their “Healer.”)”

Faith never retreats! Faith sees the problem and say problem, "there has never been a problem that my God has not been able to solve; there has never been a sickness that my God can not heal; there has never been a disease that my God can not rebuke!"

JSM

was some part of this supposed to tell me where Moses was commanded to sing, or how striking Christ = having faith in Him?
or where the Canaanite woman of great faith smote Him?

i'm not seeing it.

MessageOfTheCross · May 30, 2019

posthuman said:

Types and shadows of who Christ is and how the scriptures point to Him are close to you and all who do not believe. You are operating in the realm of sin and death.

“18 For the preaching (Message) of the Cross is to them who perish foolishness (Spiritual things cannot be discerned by unredeemed people, but that doesn’t matter; the Cross must be preached just the same, even as we shall see); but unto us who are Saved it is the Power of God. (The Cross is the Power of God simply because it was there that the total sin debt was paid, giving the Holy Spirit, in Whom the Power resides, latitude to work mightily within our lives.)

19 For it is written (Isa. 29:14), I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent (speaks to those who are wise in their own eyes, in effect, having forsaken the Ways of the Lord).

20 Where is the wise? (This presents the first of three classes of learned people who lived in that day.) where is the Scribe? (This pertained to the Jewish Theologians of that day.) where is the disputer of this world? (This speaks of the Greeks, who were seekers of mystical and metaphysical interpretations.) has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? (This pertains to what God did in sending His Son to Redeem humanity, which He did by the Cross. All the wisdom of the world couldn’t do this!)” 1 Cor. 1:18-20

The only way to God is through Jesus Christ (John 14:6)...the only way to Jesus Christ is by the Means of the Cross (Luke 14:27). The only way to the Cross is a denial of self (Luke 9:23). If any person tries to come any other way, Jesus says, "they are a thief and a robber" (John 10:1).

Jesus Christ is the source of all blessings.
The Cross is the means by which all blessings are given.
The object of our faith must be Christ and the Cross.
That being done, the Holy Spirit will greatly help us.

posthuman · May 30, 2019

MessageOfTheCross said:

i love the Christology of scripture. i am always looking at it.

for example this has been on my mind for about a month:

Now they found an Egyptian in the field and brought him to David, and gave him bread and he ate, and they provided him water to drink. They gave him a piece of fig cake and two clusters of raisins, and he ate; then his spirit revived. For he had not eaten bread or drunk water for three days and three nights. David said to him, “To whom do you belong? And where are you from?” And he said, “I am a young man of Egypt, a servant of an Amalekite; and my master left me behind when I fell sick three days ago. “We made a raid on the Negev of the Cherethites, and on that which belongs to Judah, and on the Negev of Caleb, and we burned Ziklag with fire.” Then David said to him, “Will you bring me down to this band?” And he said, “Swear to me by God that you will not kill me or deliver me into the hands of my master, and I will bring you down to this band.”

(1 Samuel 30:11-15)

find Christ in it.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

however -- you said that striking Christ is equal to having faith in Him.
you said the Canaanite woman of great faith smote Christ when she trusted Him.
you said Moses was commanded to sing. you told me this was an amazing parallel to Moses.
i didn't find any evidence that what you said had merit. i was asking for you to expand on that. you replied with these other things.

so are you conceding that what you said earlier is wrong & unsubstantiated, by changing the subject?
or was your reply supposed to have something to do with that?

Mii · May 30, 2019

posthuman said:

i find it really disturbing that i hardly read anything this guy writes. i mean, i do, in the threads i reply to - but i skim.
i know immediately it is all copy-pasted from a christian-like mega-corporation and i feel like i'm eating plastic when i do read it.

it's kind of like when you call some customer service number and reach a chatbot. it's really hard to speak to it like it's a real person.
or you're talking to a JW on your porch and everything they say has been rehearsed 100 times; you get the distinct impression that they aren't really using their brain when they speak, just regurgitating a pre-arranged if-then script.

i'm not even sure that's wrong of me, because if this MOTC is a real person, i feel like they should start thinking for themselves, and interacting with us like we're real people, and more than that, like we're Christians, who believe the scripture, who believe and put all our hope in the work of the Risen Lord & Christ. we didn't join CC and sick around the BDF for years because we are after milk.

i hate to give the impression that i'm rejecting the thing Jesus did at the cross -- i reckon anyone who knows my conversation here knows i'm not -- but good grief, how about just post a link to JSM.com and be done with it. or at least, link whatever email he or she has gotten and tell us a little bit about what they think of it.

sure, i can just skip the thread and not bother. but if MOTC is a real person, what am i doing if i ignore them completely? loving them? trow not! yet what are they doing to us with all this. & it's not something new. it's the user's entire history. i get that, probably ((assuming it's an actual person)) they attended a Jimmy Swaggart show and were moved to belief. and fandom. and devotion. to what tho? to JSM.org? i mean, they say the words, but the words all come from one source.

maybe we're just picky, Dino. *shrug*
maybe, but i'm gonna take a chance and just be real here. i'm just going to be real, and go ahead and post this rambling muse.

I'll keep going through the thread but what you wrote echoes my sentiments to an extent. Idk who JSM is (I'm somewhat careful in what I expose myself to because some things just feel grimy) but it was encouraging so I appreciate it. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt when I'm reading their words but it's like I can't make it through his posts at all and just skim also. I mean I "can" but the substance thereof is murky.

Anyway, will be on the lookout. Sometimes things taken completely out of context (seemingly) can cause one to look deeper so there is a positive to some extent.

posthuman · May 30, 2019

MessageOfTheCross said:

what makes you say that?

why all these accusations?

because i want to talk to you, not have you copy/paste some celebrity preacher's pulp all the time?

or because i'd rather read scripture as it was written, without a celebrity's opinion rudely & disrespectfully inserted all over the middle of it, bolded and red-lettered to draw much greater attention to this man's words than the actual words of God?

for which one of those do you keep accusing me?

Mii · May 30, 2019

and yet it is odd. If I'm just reading a post by itself...there isn't much I FORCEFULLY disagree with. It's just in context to a thread and the discussion thereof...it seems a bit disjointed.

I always seem to just skip over parenthesis and what other people insert.

posthuman · May 30, 2019

Mii said:

Jimmy Swaggart Ministries™

MOTC used to just copy-paste excerpts from that man's books all the time, without any indication that it wasn't MOTC's own material and thoughts he was posting. after a bit of a calling out about plagiarism, a few years back, now MOTC puts "JSM" at the end of a lot of his posts.

i only know it's Jimmy Swaggart Ministries™ because i've googled MOTC's posts ((suspecting they weren't actually his)) and found them all to be excerpts of Jimmy Swaggart Ministries™ literature. if you didn't already know this, or weren't already a Jimmy Swaggart Ministries™ devotee, i can see where just putting "JSM" isn't going to clue you in that he's not writing his own thoughts most of the time but extensively quoting Jimmy Swaggart Ministries™. it's not an immediate connection i'd make, because i'm not always thinking about Jimmy Swaggart™ and Jimmy Swaggart Ministries™ so why would i know what the acronym is supposed to be?

IMO the most honest thing to do is put a link to Jimmy Swaggart Ministries™ website where the literature was ripped from -- or whatever website you want to cite material from. personally i usually indent someone else's quoted stuff and type it in purple, to make it clear that it's not mine, but a citation.

posthuman · May 30, 2019

Mii said:

yeah, same.
none of us are 'denying the cross' or making other gods for ourselves.
we're trying to get MOTC to actually participate in the board like a real human being rather than a spokesman for Jimmy Swaggart Ministries™ -- you know, actually talk. with his own words.
and some of us feel like it's better to say JESUS CHRIST than 'the cross, the cross' -- lest we make an idol out of a pole, like the Israelites did with the brazen serpent. we want to be clear that our faith is in the Lord Jesus, not in a relic or a symbol or whatever.

for this MOTC calls us heretics. which really makes no sense at all. and goes on copy-pasting giant blocks of Jimmy Swaggart Ministries™ literature that is unrelated to the questions and discussion Dino & i were trying to raise. so it is very disjointed. i assume MOTC is still not very used to actually interacting with people, but hope that as time passes, perhaps he'll do a less confusing job of it

posthuman · May 30, 2019

posthuman said:

regardless i am happy that he's interacting

what do i care about accusations? my Defender is strong ♥

Mii · May 30, 2019

posthuman said:

Is JSM trying to peddle disguised idol worship of the cross in your opinion? or simply a narrowing of the focus of what the gospel is?

I'm not opposed to people that have a particular burden because certainly the message of the cross and what was done at Golgotha is obviously important, just that looking "too hard" at it and not living out the work thereof is error I think. I know there is always more to understand about the crucifixion but having been around ministries focused only on that I just don't really get it.

There is PLENTY I don't understand personally about what the cross is or why it had to happen that way. I know it happened, I know the word says it was necessary, I don't get that, but that's ok. If I need to know then I will. I know I'm thankful that my redeemer lives and that I can walk in relationship with him. That's about where I am right now...it's a cool place.

posthuman · May 30, 2019

Mii said:

i really don't know enough Jimmy Swaggart Ministries™ to be able to say anything like that.

i really don't know, at what point does something like that become idol worship?

in 2 Kings 18 the Bible says the Israelites were burning incense to the serpent on the pole, treating it like it was a god - that's pretty clear. but Jeremiah 7 also writes about how they were confident that Jerusalem wouldn't be sacked, because they had 'the temple! the temple!' -- the temple was become an idol to them, and they were sacked. and in 1 Samuel 4 when they were fighting the Philistines, and losing, they said, we'll go get the ark from Shiloh, and then we'll win -- the ark became an idol to them, and they lost it.

so when does something become an idol? what's the line that gets crossed? when you put your trust in it, instead of the Lord - when you look to it, instead of to Him? if that's the right 'definition' at what point would that apply to the cross? i certainly think it's possible, but it's something i'd have to reason out fully -- i ain't making that judgement, just saying it's not out of the question that it can happen, so we ought to watch out for ourselves.

Mii · May 30, 2019

posthuman said:

You went a little deeper than I meant but I am thankful because you're right there is a line and personally I think it's different for different people. For some, a cross can be a daily reminder of his sacrifice and for others almost a talisman of sorts.

Like obviously we have the pop culture references of crucifixes being a holy implement that wards off dark forces (which is balderdash) or that it has some power on it's own. It's an execution device and a public one at that. Long and drawn out. I still have yet to fully process through certain aspects and it's like I reach a barrier.

As a talisman, some people feel protected when they are wearing it (like a rosary). If it gives someone a sense of comfort I guess I'd question why exactly and that'd be someone's personal journey to figure out.

It also feels disrespectful to me to reduce Christianity to that particular symbol or to put a symbol on Christ at all. I will admit I do like the fish though

Anyway, I'll spend some time think about it. I know I've definitely seen misuse of the symbol with people that are clearly workers of iniquity and that's pretty hurtful too.

I oftentimes have something "hit me" and it might take years to understand what exactly it is or at least the content. Like having the title to a sermonette but the meat of it is still a mystery.

MessageOfTheCross · May 30, 2019

The Cross is the Power of God for the Believer. Sin debt was paid and the controlling power of sin was broken by the Cross. The Beliver who receives that and believes that in term will receive the benefits of that.

“Nailing it to His Cross . . . triumphing over them in it” means that Jesus’ great victory was won on the Cross, and on the Cross exclusively (Col. 2:14-15).

If it is any message other than the Cross, then it’s false doctrine. The Apostle Paul said so (Gal. 1:8-9).”

“18 For the preaching (Message) of the Cross is to them who perish foolishness (Spiritual things cannot be discerned by unredeemed people, but that doesn’t matter; the Cross must be preached just the same, even as we shall see); but unto us who are Saved it is the Power of God. (The Cross is the Power of God simply because it was there that the total sin debt was paid, giving the Holy Spirit, in Whom the Power resides, latitude to work mightily within our lives.)

JSM

Dino246 · May 30, 2019

MessageOfTheCross said:

There is NOTHING AT ALL in that verse about "false doctrine".

You are promoting LIES.

Please stop.

MessageOfTheCross · May 30, 2019

1 Corinthians 1:23 King James Version (KJV)
23 But we preach Christ Crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

8 But even if I we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. (Gal. 1:8-9)

If it is any message other than the Cross, then it’s false doctrine. The Apostle Paul said so (Gal. 1:8-9).”

AMEN.

BIBLE

MessageOfTheCross · May 31, 2019

Either you are under "Grace" or the "Law." There must be "oil in the lamp (extra oil for refilling's daily - Matthew 25:1-13)" What caused the lamps to go out in the time of Samuel as a boy, is causing the lamps to go out presently (1 Sam. 3:1-9). The Bible teaches us that many Christians retained the outward show and form of Faith but neglected the true inward life of Faith. The "Law" is a curse.

Remember, Jesus said out of the 10 Virgins (Believers), 5 were wise and 5 became foolish (once a Believer)...their oil was gone.

Lanolin · May 31, 2019

Why would it concern you about the cross being 'higher than the Lord'. That makes no sense.
To my mind its just showing how important the cross is in our faith journey.

Why not Investigate what the cross means. Why did Jesus have to take up the cross, and why did he say take up your cross and follow me?

Another thing is, people dont seem to understand that in the garden of eden there were two significant trees right. And in revelation we have right to the the tree of life again. What happened to the other tree?
It is no coincidence that Jesus grew up and plied his trade as a carpenter. A carpenter works with wood. Wood is sourced from...trees.

Are trees important to God? Sure are. No trees, no garden. No trees...no fruit. No trees, no healing for all. Nations.

Does this mean we worship trees? Do we place trees higher than God? No. Why people cant just let the OP explain the significance of the cross rather than trying to make out hes got another agenda is really childish and silly. I wish people would just stop and study it a bit more than go round accusing people of being heretics.

In the Bible, there is a passage that says your faith is in vain. It is for people who dont believe in the resurrection of the dead.

posthuman · May 31, 2019

MessageOfTheCross said:

John 4:13-15
Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life." The woman said to Him, "Sir, give me this water so that I won't get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water."

If you keep getting thirsty and have to keep refilling daily, do you have the right water?

Are you operating in Faith that God doesn’t recognize?

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