Eternal torment VS Annihilation

I have a simple question. John in revelations is saying all who take the mark of the beast will specifically
share the torment of the Beast eternally.

Now for this to be significant, it means sinners others would be destroyed and not tormented.
My understanding of salvation is sinners, who are lost, empty, unfocused individuals who when brought into
God presence fall apart, will just be destroyed. Their rebellion is lostness, not open rebellion in knowledge
of the truth, but in seeing life and the world and just staying in its contradictions, rejecting anything the Lord
laid out before them. So a mortal rebellion gets a limited torment followed by destruction.

The idea that a person who has made do in life is doomed to eternal torture seems disproportionate and like
saying a young child born into a disbelieving family, should be tormented for behaviour they have done before
the age of responsibility. Equally to say these children will automatically go to heaven contravenes the gospel
and Pauls writings. So this catagory of destruction seems to fit this reality. I am not saying this is "right" I am
saying on the balance of the issues and scripture, this seems to fit and for me seems just.

As usual, you avoided addressing the scriptures that I presented and now jumping to your own set of questions. However, to answer your question, no, I did not have awareness prior to being born and neither did angels. However, you are confusing this with God who has no beginning or ending. Once the angels were created, they would exist forever. It is the same thing with every human being that comes into the world. They exist forever. Those angels that rebelled against God are still existing, either out in the world and some in the Abyss or Tartartus. Those angels will be judged at the great white throne judgment and will exist forever in torment in the lake of fire.

For human beings, at the time of death the spirit departs from the body and goes to its respective place either in the presence of the Lord or down into Hades. At the end of the thousand years, those spirits who are in Hades will also receive a resurrected body mete for their punishment and will stand before God for their official judgment where they will be thrown into the lake of fire and where they will exist forever in punishment in the lake of fire. Therefore, every person who is born into the world from that point forward exists forever.



This is exactly what you are not comprehending! You don't understand the term "eternal life." Conscious eternal existence in separation from God in the lake of fire IS NOT eternal life. Eternal life is only for those who are reconciled to God through the shed blood of Christ; those whose names have been written in the book of life. In opposition, those who have not been reconciled to God and die in their sins, suffer the second death for eternity. Both life and death are states of eternal existence

Life = Eternal existence in the presence of the Lord in the kingdom of God

Death = Eternal existence in separation from the Lord in the lake of fire

Your error here is that you consider eternal existence in separation from God as eternal life, when it is existence in the conscious state of death.



You continue to side step the scriptures that I have provided, which is what you are doing now. So, I am going to bring it up again: When Jesus was on the cross and said to the man next to Him "Today you will be with me in paradise," how could Jesus promise this to him when they both died that same day and the Lord body didn't resurrect until three days later? These are the deductions that you don't perform. You take only one side and sweep the rest under the rug. In order to arrive at any Biblical conclusion, on any given subject, It is important to consider all scripture, which is what you are not doing. So, when you reply, I want you only to comment on this question.



Satan is of course the liar and you are believing in his lies, because what you have been claiming is not what God's word says.

You never responded to any of the examples that I have given to you regarding the scriptures demonstrating the spirits of those who have died as being conscious and aware, such Moses and Elijah, the three references to those under the earth, the souls under the altar. To much to explain away, huh!

My only purpose is to contend for the truth of God's word and you are distorting it.

As usual, none of the scriptures that you have provided say anything about annihilation or extinction

nor have you explained why the wicked would also be receiving a resurrected body if they are just going to be burned up. You confuse body with spirit.

And you ignore all the other scriptures that directly state that the punishment of the wicked is forever and ever, eternal and everlasting. The meaning for everlasting fire is in reference to those who will suffer in it.

The Bema seat of Christ is where believers are judged, not for sin, but for rewards for good works or loss of reward, where the great white throne judgment is where all of the unrighteous dead will stand before God and will be held accountable for all of their sins. The judgment of the saved and the unsaved are two different judgments.

Judgment of believers
"For all of us (believers) must appear before the judgment seat of the Messiah, so that each of us may receive what he deserves for what he has done in his body, whether good or worthless." - 2 Cor.5:10

Judgment of the wicked
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. - Rev.20:11-15

The two judgments above take place at least a thousand years apart.

The scripture above is in reference to the man of lawlessness, i.e. the antichrist, which is referring to when the Lord returns to the earth and the beast is thrown alive into the lake of fire.

"But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Please provide any scripture which teaches that sinners, other than the ones who worship the beast and receive his mark, will be destroyed. Consider the following scripture:

I already showed how Satan is tormented in the presence of Jesus, as the wickedness he committed "for ages and ages (forever and ever) are exposed. Satan is turned to ashes after this.

Satan as a lying spirit has no substance that could turn into ashes.. Not formed from the rudiments of this world as a beast of the field 666. . . mankind

Satan not having a body isn't the point. Satan is likened to man, who in turn is likened to a beast. The point is, compared to God, Satan is a dog. God doesn't need Satan to have a physical body to turn him into nothing.

Elijah is easily explained as he didn't die but was translated to heaven in a chariot so that does not prove life after death. Moses is a little harder other than God said he would die on the mountain and not enter into promised land with the others. I believe God resurrected Moses and took him to heaven also.

What you said to me I could say back to you as we have been taught different which is why we have different beliefs. But yours or my doctrine is not going to be what saves either one of us. It is going to be our belief in the saving blood of Jesus and if we have accepted him as our savior or not.

I believe many Christians of different faiths will be saved and doctrines differ greatly from denomination to denomination. It will be those who have Jesus as their savior and built a relationship with him who will be saved and lived up to the knowledge they have that the Holy Spirit led them into.

So we can agree to disagree and it doesn't make you or me better or smarter than the other one cause as I see it we are both saved.

I have a simple problem.
Before Jesus suffering in torment is not a strong biblical theme.
Jesus brought reward and punishment for sin.

David brought the desire to destroy from memory evil people, but Gods judgement.
To give sinners eternal consciousness and to put energy into torment for lost behaviour
in a dark world seems to exalt revenge over ignorance, people lost as if they knew what
the rebellion they were living in.

It seems man is lost, built in the image of God, loving yet denying this love and slowly dying
inside, while those who are born again are brought to life and reality in Jesus.

When the Kingdom comes, mortality disappears. There is no more birth and death. Those who
are in torment are eternal, with eternal rebellion as warning to those who would rebel against the
King and their eternal end. The lost have always been lost, they could not rebel against being lost
because they were not found.

At the end of all things, those who are not written in the Lambs book of life will rebel.
If one wants to hold everything is eternal, for what purpose are those who could never understand
tortured, as there was never a hope for them. If all have a hope, why is their only salvation through
hearing the word. Millions never hear the word, are they then worthy of eternal torture rather than
eternal destruction?

Elijah is easily explained as he didn't die but was translated to heaven in a chariot so that does not prove life after death. Moses is a little harder other than God said he would die on the mountain and not enter into promised land with the others. I believe God resurrected Moses and took him to heaven also.

What you said to me I could say back to you as we have been taught different which is why we have different beliefs

But yours or my doctrine is not going to be what saves either one of us. It is going to be our belief in the saving blood of Jesus and if we have accepted him as our savior or not.

I believe many Christians of different faiths will be saved and doctrines differ greatly from denomination to denomination. It will be those who have Jesus as their savior and built a relationship with him who will be saved and lived up to the knowledge they have that the Holy Spirit led them into.

So we can agree to disagree and it doesn't make you or me better or smarter than the other one cause as I see it we are both saved.

Good, that is what I wanted to hear. I used to be more on the eternal torment side until two weeks ago and I also believe or used to believe that hell is eternal separation. I mean, many eternal torment believers believe that it was not, here an example:

2 weeks ago...

You used to have orthodox doctrine until 2 weeks ago?

I think the question is... what horrible thing happened to you 2 weeks ago.

Let's start with that.


..

The problem is that they have believed the manipulation of the words "eternal, everlasting and forever and ever" to mean temporary. I'm very confident that if God wanted to convey that punishment for the unrighteous as being temporary, He could have easily used words to convey that. However, eternal, everlasting and forever and ever, does not.

No, Moses has not yet been resurrected. First of all, you have no scripture whatsoever to support that claim. Scripture states that God took Moses buried him and no one knew where. And two, Jesus is the first fruits of the first resurrection. Therefore, if Moses was resurrected prior to Jesus, then Jesus could not be the first fruits of the resurrection, Moses would be. And when I say resurrection, I'm speaking about those who rise and will receive their immortal and glorified bodies and not those whom Jesus resurrected and who later died again.



Your error is the assumption that I was taught by other teachers, however, I have done my own studies for the last forty five years. And I thank God that have, otherwise I might be running around proclaiming the same junk that is being taught and which I am currently contending against. The information that I have been presenting to you is from those studies and not from other teachers.



Well, the problem with that is that you and others are distorting God's word with your teachings. You are blatantly ignoring the plain literal meaning of scripture in favor of the teachings of men. Not every who says "Lord, Lord" will enter into the kingdom of God. For example, Hymenaeus and Philetus believed in Jesus, but were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place; and because of this, Paul called it "godless chatter" and that it would only lead to more ungodliness, that their teaching would spread like gangrene and that because of this they had wandered away from the truth. Likewise, many today may believe themselves to be in Christ, but because they believe and teach that the resurrection has already taken place, like Hymenaeus and Philetus, they have wandered from the truth.

It is not good to misrepresent any of God's word and I can tell you, that this is exactly what you and others are doing with your teachings of annihilation of the wicked and soul-sleep and that because scripture does not teach any of these concepts. Instead you have believed the teachings of men.



I'm not concerned about being better or smarter. What I am concerned about, is contending for the truth and accuracy of God's word. In these last days it seems that Satan has launched an all-out attack on God's word and has found many so-called Christians to be foot soldiers to bring these false teachings into the church and the world. And they're not even aware of it. There are many here on this forum who have done the studies and know the lies when we see them. And when we tell them the truth, we see the same old trumped up apologetics over and over again.

These false teachings that have crept into the church is the fulfillment of the scripture which states that "The days are coming when people will not put up with sound doctrine, but instead they will gather around themselves teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will abandon the truth and turn aside to myths."

In regards to annihilation, I'm sure that there are many who would be fine with that result. For there are many who have committed suicide assuming that that they would cease to exist. Obviously, those who have taken their own lives are fine with nonexistence or else they wouldn't have followed through with it. Unfortunately for them, the moment they took their own lives, instead of lights out, their spirits departed their bodies and found themselves conscious, aware and in torment in flame and like the rich man, knowing exactly why they were there. You're teaching of annihilation lets them off the hook (in their own minds) for their sins against an eternal and Holy God.

You tell someone that when they die, that their punishment will be to cease to exist, they shrug their shoulders, because that's what most believe anyway. But you tell somebody that their punishment is eternal existence in separation from God in the lake of fire and that's a whole new ball game! You and others are teaching them exactly what they want to hear. Think about that!

Smoke and ashes are things that describe nothing.


I already showed that in God's sight, Satan is no more than mankind, or like cattle, or a bug.

I already showed how Satan is tormented in the presence of Jesus, as the wickedness he committed "for ages and ages (forever and ever) are exposed. Satan is turned to ashes after this.


They're the same judgment, because both both works and people are tried by Christ's fire,

If someone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as through fire. 1Cor.3:15

The judgment seat of Christ will be terror, torment, for unbelievers,

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men 2Cor.5:11

The book of life is opened with the books of works for this reason,

whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God. Jn.3:21

"I believe many Christians of different faiths"
Too liberal for me. Makes me think of the broad path leading to destruction.

Eph 4:4 etc
"There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. "

So you contend that it is fair and just that if someone just told one lie and happened to be one of Adam and Eve's children that they have been burning since their death that it was their misfortune to be born that long ago and burn for that lie all this time while someone like Hitler who was born years later but committed many more atrocities has burned for a shorter period of time? Where is the justice in that.

Or that a parent goes to heaven and watches their child burn in hell and that is joyful and would make them want to praise God.

If I were the Lazarus that was Jesus friend who had died and been brought back to life I would question Jesus and ask My Lord why did you bring me back from paradise to this hell hole? To live and die again when I was in heaven with your Father. How cruel would that have been and where would that have been better for Lazarus to do that to him?

Lazarus was in dead sleep unaware until Jesus raised him from the dead and rewards good or bad are not passed out until Jesus returns as Bible states his rewards are with him.

I have never assumed that I have it all right but the way you write you assume that you do and the rest of us are following the teachings of men. Could you possibly be wrong about anything?

So heaven is all Baptists? Methodists? Catholics? Or insert your denomination here? There won't be a broad base of true saved Christians in heaven?