Not By Works

So what are they turning away from if they never knew Him?
To love Him is to love others
To love others is definitely works.

So you do believe that works do not matter.

Opinion and truth.

Truth speaks for itself, it does not matter who speaks it. Whether we accept the truth, like or dislike
it, if we desire to know God, it should speak to our hearts.

7 So, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you hear his voice,
8 do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the desert,
9 where your fathers tested and tried me and for forty years saw what I did.
10 That is why I was angry with that generation, and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray, and they have not known my ways.'
11 So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'"
Heb 3

God declares, though He speaks we can harden our hearts so we do not hear.
It is profound to think the truth of the argument is not enough, the state of our hearts matters.
And the consequences are eternal.

When people oppose love, talk as if sin is just the flesh of man which we must put up with, that
a theology that keeps us happy is good enough, you know there is no reality going on.

3 A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God.
4 Every valley shall be raised up, every mountain and hill made low; the rough ground shall become level, the rugged places a plain.
5 And the glory of the LORD will be revealed, and all mankind together will see it. For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."
Isa 40

The call of John was for people to repent of sin and walk righteously. He prepared the way for Jesus.
If one opposes repentance, daily, hourly, incident by incident, you know you have missed His path.

Poetic truth

We are mortal and blind, caught in sin, self justifying, fighting to prove something which can
never win. And here comes the light, Jesus, every word, words of life and love.

We think we know Him and start to walk in this light, but discouragements come, we trip and
fall, feelings close in, darkness arrives and we fade away.

Yes we never knew Him, or else we would have stayed and walked into eternity.
But yes we had met Him and stood in that light, felt it all, yet chose the place of shadow and
darkness.

Did Satan ever know God? Ultimately no.
Our knowledge or communion with the Lord is eternal. No matter how long we know Him, if
we turn away, that time which is finite is dwarfed by the infinite dwelling with the King.

So everything is not as it seems, and the wisdom of God is so much deeper than the wisdom of
man. God bless you.

What I have to shake myself up to, is how the word of God means nothing to some hearts.
And I mean nothing. The continued repetition of 1/100 of scripture as if this defines the infinite
eternal perspectives God has given us, is a wonder. It is like a record going round and round, yet
it never grows or develops, or gains insight, or love, or joy, or grace, or wisdom or depth into Christ
and His Holy Spirit. Dear Lord, thank you, though I struggle to keep my heart where it should be in
you, thank you for your revelation and continuing growth in your word and revelation of love in Jesus,
Amen

Amen! Not all belief is the same. Even though this shallow ground hearer in Luke 8:13 is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? Allow me to explain the reasons.

First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

IN CONTRAST TO - Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. So the rocky soil represents a person not properly prepared in heart so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted, or established) and good soil represents a person properly prepared in heart who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeps it and bears fruit with patience.

*Unlike saving belief, temporary, shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they are not saved.

John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some extent) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of consummated belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe unto salvation" and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18) but were instead children of the devil.

I think he means specifically in regards to being saved. Born again.

The not by works thread is a thread meant to give glory to Jesus.

Only be grace through faith we are saved.


(of course they matter .... otherwise why would God chasten His saved children for sin... He wants us to conform to His ways.... but we are saved and kept saved appart from our performance because in regards to salvation we will be covered by the righteousness of Jesus <-spotless)

Not to maintain one’s salvation. The statement itself is a misnomer.

Amen! In John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches (cosmic connection) that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. - https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/john/john-15.html

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

What you just proved is you can’t read. Or if you do read you can not understand.

DC never said anything like this, or that believers will never make a mistake.

What is it with you people and failure to read? Or understand?

Like I said, you’re self righteous.

In Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9). *You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.*

If the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation as you teach, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14)

*NOWHERE in the context does it specifically say the person who "trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant" was "saved" and/or "lost their salvation." The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation.

*In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that do not line up with scripture.

In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as an active participant in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but then renounces his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.

My review of the works thread. This is prety much the way it goes.

DC - the Sky is Blue!

Lawyers - No DC, they sky is not green,

DC - I said the sky is Blue!

Lawyers - No DC, the sky is not green!!

DC - Stop your slander and lying and misrepresenting what I say, the sky is blue! I have maintained that since I got here.

Lawyers, - Stop lieing DC, You keep saying the sky is Green, Everyone here can see it, You just hate the truth, and you hate God!!

Luke 8 Parable of the sower
Jesus: There are 4 categories
OSAS: There's only 2 categories, those that believe and are saved and those that never believe and are not saved

Jesus: Category 2 and 3 fall away
OSAS: It never said they were saved at all (category 2 & 3)
Other OSAS: It never said they were never saved eventually (Category 2 & 3)

Jesus: Those that believed and are saved, retained the word and persevered - something the other categories failed to do
OSAS: It is Christ who works everything, there's no such thing as retaining faith or persevering
OSAS again: In the original Greek, this meant blah blah blah .... with 12 categories of the same.

Unfortunately here is what I wrote

"You say I am self righteous. I am only righteous because Jesus has made me like this through His
atoneing sacrifice and forgiveness and my repentance of my sin, no matter how specific and struggling
I am. I am a wretched man upon whom God has reigned His grace and blessings. Whatever I am I am
nothing compared to the cross and the shedding of His blood that we might live. Glory be to Him, Amen. "

You quoted "I am a wretched man"

I have to laugh. Some use the passage of the tax collector

10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'
13 "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'
Luke 18

So I am at a loss quite what you mean. I have no problem with you addressing me in however you
want, because I just want to know Jesus and His ways in my life.
I am therefore sad if you feel I am self righteous or even trying to be such, as that is not my intent.
So please help me understand your intent, so that I understand before the Lord how to respond.

Maybe by Christ cleansing and washing me, forgiving my sin so my conscience is clear, for you is self
righteousness. But how can I be the source of my righteousness if it is Christs work and intent in my
heart. God bless you

You really should read Scripture. It may open your eyes to God’s gracious Truth.

Let me give a different perspective
DC - This car is a wreck, but a quick paint job and no one will notice, especially God
Redeemed - The car is being remade, it has brakes, engine, wheels, everything works, wow
DC - You liars, my car is a broken wreck so is yours also, you dishonest, deceiving liars
Redeemed - No the car is a gift of God and we use it every day in everything we do. Yes we make mistakes
but He puts it right again, Halleluyah
DC - You are on the road to hell with your deception. Wrecks will be destroyed when Jesus comes and we will
be in heaven
Redeemed - You poor lost soul. The very life you hold is the very life that will be judged, there is no separation
between body and soul, both are thrown into the lake of fire for eternal destruction.

This is pretty much the way it goes.

John 3:16-17 is the truth regardless of anything you say to oppose it.

Unfortunately you’re self righteous. But you don’t always have to be that way. You can glorify God for the free, irrevocable gift of grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I pray you receive His grace.