Once saved always saved? Or is salvation conditional on believing and following God's Word?

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Waggles

Waggles

Senior Member
#141
Sep 21, 2017
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#141
@Hemustincrease
3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us
to his own glory and excellence,
5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge,
> virtue + knowledge + self-control + steadfastness + godliness + brotherly affection + love [7 action words]
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our
Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.
2Peter 1:
and here Peter is writing to the Spirit-filled church of the saints who have all been obedient to Acts 2:38
He is not writing to Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox nor any other flavours.
 
FollowHisSteps

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
#142
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
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#142
Hemustincrease said:
Is salvation conditional on choosing to believe and follow Gods Word?
Click to expand...
Fickle, fragile, judgemental

Men are fickle
Men are fragile
Men are judgemental

Imagine you gave the power of God and His authority to any man today.
What would happen? Death and destruction.

How can a sinner be made a saint to stand in the presence of the Father?

Saved, washed, disciplined, refined, a follower of Gods way and will unto death.

Wise, convinced me, have decided in their judgement, through a few words put on this forum I am
worthy of hell, torture forever, for disagreeing with their views on salvation.

There view is passive faith. A sinner who reaches out to Christ is secure and whole, no matter their
life style, beliefs or actions, because at some point they called out to Jesus.

They expect God will transform such sinners into mature people, focused, part of Gods family, exercising judgement,
love, care over all their responsibilities, to eternal significance, even though they showed none of these
attributes on earth, and the parables tell such people will be rejected.

Imagine the veil drops and Jesus is there, our bodies are now transformed and nothing else changes.
No magic resolution or changing, just judgement of where you are today.

Jesus said we are cleansed by Him, forgiven, made whole, purified, made righteous and blameless.
It takes faith to believe this, real faith. Then Jesus says each sin needs to be worked through, as brought
into one awareness, and brought to Him, in humbleness and brokeness and it will be resolved.

It takes faith to believe this, real faith.
If I can be judged for wanting the fulfilment of Jesus's words, to Hell, tortured forever, then those people
who speak such words should beware the fate they so quickly apply is not their own judgement.

If people love Jesus so much, why not listen and follow. If people know the meaning of the words, why not
obey? The fact they can neither listen or follow suggests whoever they are and whatever they claim to know
it is not Jesus and His way they are interested in. God bless you.
 
FollowHisSteps

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
#143
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
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#143
dcontroversal said:
I will NEVER leave thee or FORSAKE THEE
WE are KEPT by the power of GOD through FAITH <--the FAITH JESUS BEGINS, FINISHES and COMPLETES
I will LOSE NOTHING, but RAISE it up the last day
DOES ETERNAL or EVERLASTING = temporal? <--as applied unto LIFE
Paul was persuaded NOTHING can separate us from the LOVE of GOD
SEALED unto the DAY of redemption
THAT which is born from above DOES NOT SIN
THE GIFTS and CALLING are IRREVOCABLE <--what does that MEAN
SAVED to the UTTERMOST
IN the FATHER'S HAND, in the SON's HAND and NO MAN removes us <---does no MAN include US
Having been born of INCORRUPTIBLE SEED from ABOVE <----what does INCORRUPTIBLE mean
THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH
Bible's HOPE <---A CONFIDENT expectation of something GUARANTEED (NOT like a LOTTERY TICKET HOPE)
WHY does GOD CHASTEN every SON whom he receives if SIN can cause the loss of salvation?
To believers-->IF we become FAITHLESS (after faith) HE abides faithful because HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF. <--WHY
etc.

JESUS can saves us at our worst but CANNOT KEEP US SAVED is what salvation LOSERS expect us to embrace....and yet those that peddle is HAVE NEVER lost salvation.

THERE are SO MANY truths that must be rejected, denied, swept under the table to peddle a salvation that can be LOST.....GOD'S word does NOT contradict itself.....THE above TOTALLY contradict a losable salvation.....NOW think about that.....EITHER the above are ALL false or lies or a losable salvation is NOT peddled by the bible....
Click to expand...
The question here is not losing salvation, but gaining it.
Those who rebel against Jesus do not love Him. Those who do evil do not know Him.

10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are:
Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
1 John 3

7 He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.
8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from
the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.
1 John 3

If one sells a cheap faith and walk, you get cheap fulfilment and lifestyle.
So challenged was Paul that people took the gospel, claimed the promises while staying sinners they
wrote

9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:
Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Cor 6

The fruit of Gods people are

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.
Gal 5

To promise those who have not gained the fruit of the Spirit that they are eternally secure is
presumptuous and without merit. Peter describes what eternal security looks like

5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge;
6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness;
7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love.
8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,
11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1

This is the basis of eternal security in Christ, Amen.
 
FollowHisSteps

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
#144
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
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#144
dcontroversal said:
I have always said that any work/fruit is a product of Christ doing it through us as a living sacrifice.....HE is the one that produces....we but bear it.....!!
Click to expand...
I do not trust this sentiment from you, unfortunately.
To hold to the gnostic view of spirituality, and then speak about bearing fruit for me is absurd.
In a belief system with a perfect mature spirit, and a lost body or flesh with carnal passions, there
is no progress or resolution.

If one can honestly declare we are one whole being, built and refined by Christ as we walk with
Him, then amen, but this has not been your declared position.
Some talk about lying, deception, delusion, but here is something that does not add up.
I am willing to understand your explanation, but maybe it is beyond your abilities.

I do wonder if the position as the blazing light for the defence of faith, is actually something else
and just confusing a life mission with what truth and love actually are. Is it earning salvation by
fighting the fight, while believing grabbing the golden ticket matters, nothing can change who
does and who doesn't, except these evil enemy are stealing it away, except they cannot.

So much contradiction and confusion, but maybe jetting around the world, pottering in ones
mansions, you got to have a hobby?
 
FollowHisSteps

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
#145
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
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#145
Waggles said:
@Hemustincrease
3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us
to his own glory and excellence,
5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge,
> virtue + knowledge + self-control + steadfastness + godliness + brotherly affection + love [7 action words]
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our
Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.
2Peter 1:
and here Peter is writing to the Spirit-filled church of the saints who have all been obedient to Acts 2:38
He is not writing to Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox nor any other flavours.
Click to expand...
You have to love Peter, that great Apostle.
Paul faced the super apostles. He faced those who claimed the resurrection had already come.
He faced what we are facing here, you are in the kingdom and cannot ever lose it, so how you
live is irrelevant, God has your back.

I have wondered why John wrote, "if you sin you are of the devil" which is very strong.
But guys like dc show how frustrating it is when someone will throw loving, caring, honest, people
with integrity under a bus and condemn them to hell, because they suggest brothers who show no
love of Christ are actually not saved and destined to inherit the Kingdom.

Paul clearly states have nothing to do with brothers such as these, do not even eat with them.
It is as clear as day. And yet so many "believers" get in line and support such ideas everyone is ok.

It makes me realise, our walk is truly a dedication of the heart, listening to Jesus, and not going
along with the masses, no matter how "spiritual" they claim to be, they are happy to junk Gods
word for their own ends, and not feeling guilty.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#146
Jan 12, 2019
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#146
Waggles said:
4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.
5 “If a man is righteous and does what is just and right—
9 walks in my statutes, and keeps my rules by acting faithfully —he is righteous; he shall surely live, declares the Lord GOD.
20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son.
The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right,
he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done
he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?
Ezekiel 18: (ESV)
Click to expand...
So is your answer to my question a yes? No point just quoting scripture without explaining.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#147
#147
Hemustincrease said:
No one is saying we have to save ourselves. We are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8). Not sure why you are saying this.

God bless
Click to expand...
you are saying this IF you are saying acts of obedience must be added to faith or grace.

Not sure why you can not see this.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#149
#149
CharliRenee said:
In the past the ifs have had me shiverring and tucking my tail between my legs. I too would like more clarity on the scriptures that seem to point to contingencies. However, I rest now in His promises. I think they are His design to make sure we REALLY believe. Jeremiah comes to mind.

I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.
Jeremiah 32:40 NASB


It is He that saves us and He that keeps us. All of us who believe will stumble, all of us who believe will grow as we yearn to humbly walk with Him. Only He is able to present us blameless. We are in Him. We are not Him.

It is because of our trust in Him that we can rest in this...

Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
Jude 1:24‭-‬25 NASB

But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts , boast in the Lord .”
1 Corinthians 1:30‭-‬31 NASB

I believe obedience is very important component of loving Him. He says so. That is why He put His laws in our heart. The key, for me, is trusting in His ability to get us where we need to be, rather than hoping and trusting in ourselves. I don't know about you but history has proven to me that trusting in Him rather than myself is the wise way to go. Seeking His word and walking humbly with Him all is possible because He first loves us. He gets all the Glory.

And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed; as it is written, “H e scattered abroad , he gave to the poor , H is righteousness endures forever .” Now He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness;
2 Corinthians 9:8‭-‬10 NASB

We are not set apart because of anything we do, but because He is Holy.

I believe He wants to renew our thoughts in Him, constantly working within, helping us walk in His spirit, not be terrified of our carnality waging war against Him.

I believe in Him and my trust is in Him. Great is His Faithfulness.
Click to expand...
Amen sis

I think the argument boils down to what empowers these works. DO we do them as a result of being sanctified by the power of God. or do we do them as some means to earn or maintain our salvation (ie, justification is the factor) which means we are trying to do them by our own power. Even if we call it love.
 
FollowHisSteps

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
#150
Feb 15, 2019
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#150
Presumption

The presumption of some is hey, this is my view, if you saw it, you would agree or you are evil.
Why cannot you see this, you evil, deceived doomed to hell, puked out, bs individual?

Sorry I am so passionate it just slipped out, cannot help myself, I really know God and His love,
the ways of peace, love and acceptance, bring mercy, mourning, meekness, hungering and thirsting
for righteousness, reconciliation of the world to God through self sacrifice and service.
Oh and not resisting the evil person, but turning the other cheek, showing the fruits of the Spirit,
of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, self control.

Opps.

Gods way is to present His heart and way and call people to listen and follow.
At the end, those who truly have dwelt and been built in Him and His word will be the righteous.

The rest will be swept and blown away, as chaff on the threshing floor, as things that could have been
but never made it. Presumption has never been our place, shinning as a light on a hill has always
been Gods message through us.

14 "You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden.
15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.
16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
Matt 5
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#151
#151
CharliRenee said:
I want to be clear, I now believe the ifs are to make sure we believe not so we stay saved.

He keeps us. You do agree He gets ALL the glory, right?

How do you reconcile your stance with Him being the author and finisher?
Click to expand...
Amen

I think james calls it testing of our own faith. Are we hearers only, or are we doers..

Not to maintain salvation, But to test our walk with our father.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#152
#152
Hemustincrease said:
Not sure who this is directed to?? But of course it is God's work in us. Without Jesus we can do nothing. He is the author and finisher of all those who believe and follow God's word not to those who once believed and no longer follow.

God bless
Click to expand...
if they no longer follow. did they ever really believe? or was it just lip service? (see james and 1st John)
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#153
Apr 7, 2014
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#153
TheDivineWatermark said:
[OP+] What are your thoughts on the following?

"...the gospel that/which I [Paul] proclaimed unto you":

1)--"which also ye received [aorist]"

2)--"in which also ye stand [perfect tense; G2476]"

3)--"by means of which also you are being saved"

and then...

--the "unless ye have believed in vain" [keeping in mind v.11 says, "thus ye believed"], and vv.13-17 explaining what the "believe in vain" refers to (which is, basically, to leave off [altogether] the vital aspect of "His resurrection," which would render their preaching in vain, and our faith in vain... [rendering it all ineffectual (apart from His "resurrection"), if you will]). Am I explaining this clearly enough? (or perhaps I need to rearrange some wording... hoping it'll come to me within 5 mins! :D )
Click to expand...
1 Corinthians 15:1,2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If, as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14). The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrate that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe in the first place/faith was never firmly rooted and established).
 
FollowHisSteps

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
#154
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
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113
#154
CharliRenee said:
In the past the ifs have had me shiverring and tucking my tail between my legs. I too would like more clarity on the scriptures that seem to point to contingencies. However, I rest now in His promises. I think they are His design to make sure we REALLY believe. Jeremiah comes to mind.

I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.
Jeremiah 32:40 NASB


It is He that saves us and He that keeps us. All of us who believe will stumble, all of us who believe will grow as we yearn to humbly walk with Him. Only He is able to present us blameless. We are in Him. We are not Him.

It is because of our trust in Him that we can rest in this...

Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
Jude 1:24‭-‬25 NASB

But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts , boast in the Lord .”
1 Corinthians 1:30‭-‬31 NASB

I believe obedience is very important component of loving Him. He says so. That is why He put His laws in our heart. The key, for me, is trusting in His ability to get us where we need to be, rather than hoping and trusting in ourselves. I don't know about you but history has proven to me that trusting in Him rather than myself is the wise way to go. Seeking His word and walking humbly with Him all is possible because He first loves us. He gets all the Glory.

And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed; as it is written, “H e scattered abroad , he gave to the poor , H is righteousness endures forever .” Now He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness;
2 Corinthians 9:8‭-‬10 NASB

We are not set apart because of anything we do, but because He is Holy.

I believe He wants to renew our thoughts in Him, constantly working within, helping us walk in His spirit, not be terrified of our carnality waging war against Him.

I believe in Him and my trust is in Him. Great is His Faithfulness.
Click to expand...
I agree, could Jesus ever leave us alone.
In any loving relationship there is always a risk of abandonment, it is what makes our relationship
special.

Jesus wanted to reassure His people, He is there for them, literally, they are secure in Him as He is in them.
The cross is this beacon that shines brighter than any, though the world hates us and castes us out, whether
in the guise of believers or authorities, friends or colleagues, still Jesus is there beside us walking on.

The power of Jesus is love makes every hurt, every trial something we can work through and overcome, nothing
is impossible for Him. As soon as we close the door in our hearts and declare out of bounds, we have started
to walk in unbelief, and are in danger of letting go. So fundamental to Jesus is this giving up he described it
as losing ones life.

25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.
26 What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.
Matt 16

The walk of faith for some has become an evil walk of self righteousness, and they condemn all to hell who
share or preach such things.

This is strange to me, such spiritual intent and opposition, so personal, judgemental and extreme, it truly
rocks ones soul. Yet they claim the authority of scripture and are prepared to condemn most of the church
along with it. God help those who walk this path, and are prepared to stand like God over other believers,
God bless you
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#155
#155
Hemustincrease said:
My faith and righteousness comes from him who loves me and died for me. He has set me free from my sins to believe and follow him. Those who do not believe and follow him are still in their sins because they do not believe and follow.

God bless
Click to expand...
So which comes first.

the following or the believing?

And again, How much do we have to follow him to be following him enough? what is required?
 
OneOfHis

OneOfHis

Well-known member
#156
Mar 24, 2019
1,430
2,210
113
#156
FollowHisSteps said:
I agree, could Jesus ever leave us alone.
In any loving relationship there is always a risk of abandonment, it is what makes our relationship
special.

Jesus wanted to reassure His people, He is there for them, literally, they are secure in Him as He is in them.
The cross is this beacon that shines brighter than any, though the world hates us and castes us out, whether
in the guise of believers or authorities, friends or colleagues, still Jesus is there beside us walking on.

The power of Jesus is love makes every hurt, every trial something we can work through and overcome, nothing
is impossible for Him. As soon as we close the door in our hearts and declare out of bounds, we have started
to walk in unbelief, and are in danger of letting go. So fundamental to Jesus is this giving up he described it
as losing ones life.

25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.
26 What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.
Matt 16

The walk of faith for some has become an evil walk of self righteousness, and they condemn all to hell who
share or preach such things.

This is strange to me, such spiritual intent and opposition, so personal, judgemental and extreme, it truly
rocks ones soul. Yet they claim the authority of scripture and are prepared to condemn most of the church
along with it. God help those who walk this path, and are prepared to stand like God over other believers,
God bless you
Click to expand...

So dishonest....😔


Would you care to admit your previous banned account names?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#157
#157
Hemustincrease said:
I think my friend your trying to make arguments no one is making. Once again what is it in the OP and the scriptures provided there that you disagree with? Jesus saying he will lose nothing is in the present tense to those who the father has given him that believe and follow His word. It is not saying we can not believe and not follow God's word and still expect to receive God's promises which are conditional on believing and following.
Click to expand...
the words I bolded are not in the text.

John 6: 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

The word follow is no where in the text. You are adding to the word my friend.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#158
#158
Hemustincrease said:
Hello brother please forgive me perhaps I misunderstood your earlier post. No one is under the law if they have received God's forgiveness and are believing and following God's word. We are only under the law if we are guilty or breaking it (Romans 3:19-20)

God bless
Click to expand...
This is alot of works their my friend.

we are not under law if we follow it. but if we break it, we are under law..

its also contradictory I pray you can see this
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#159
#159
Waggles said:
Then be honest and true to the word of God ...
Mark 16:15-20 - only deleted in the Vatican and Orthodox manuscripts libraries.
and Acts 2:38-39

believe and obey is the only way.
Click to expand...
You can't obey in a way that is required to be saved, If yu could. Jesus died in vein.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#160
#160
Hemustincrease said:
Without Jesus all of our righteousness is as filthy rags. I thank Jesus for the new clothes he died to give me.

God bless
Click to expand...
He gave you a new body also.. A body which is unable to continue in sin. And a new heart, Which loves to follow him, And a new covenant, were you are not required to follow him, but your desire is to follow him. A father who we call ABBA, and can come to him knowing he loves us, and not in the spirit of fear. And eternal life, were we can look at the struggles of this life. and if we grow enough, know this life is but a twinkling of an eye compared to eternity, SO no matter what this life throws at us, it is all a momentary light affliction.
 
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