If Perchance Catholicism Is Mistaken

Then what does Moses and Elijah represent in that parable if not the two witnesses ?

Did I say anything about literal flesh and blood? No.

I'm not Catholic, as I have told you previously. However, given your propensity to ignore what I tell you, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

garee said:

Apply it to the parable using Moses and Elijah.

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What part of "It's not a parable" do you not get?

I’m going to say . . . the word NOT.
Just a hunch. 🤷‍♂️

Again, I think it's a matter of Bible interpretation.

Some people may be able to tell what kind of spirit they are talking to.
1 Corinthians 12: 10. and to another workings of miracles; and to another prophecy; and
to another discerning of spirits;
to another different kinds of languages; and to another the interpretation of languages.

Here's a very strange situation, it looks like the body of Elisha kept some kind of healing power even after he died.
2 Kings 13: 21. It happened, as they were burying a man, that behold, they spied a band; and they cast the man into the tomb of Elisha: and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.

The letter that Athanasius wrote where he talks about what books are in the New testament, is that apostolic tradition or some other kind of tradition?

Acts 14: 14. But when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul,
heard of it, they tore their clothes, and sprang into the multitude, crying out,

How did Barnabas become an apostle?

I believe we were talking about what kind of tradition it was.

So the date would affect the kind of tradition, imo.

I disagree. Peter wants to build tents for everyone. To me, this implies that they were literally there.

If something in the scriptures sounds like Catholicism, maybe Catholicism is not complete rubbish.

Also, maybe Jesus talking to Moses and Elijah isn't necromancy.

This is a minor point, but I believe the scriptures do tell us what they were talking about
Luke 9: 30. Behold, two men were talking with him, who were Moses and Elijah, 31. who appeared in glory,
and spoke of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.

As a prophet declaring the word of God crying out . God sent them defining the word apostles. He sent Abel the first martyr.

Jesus called it a vision. I believe it was

horama: that which is seen
Original Word: ὅραμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: horama
Phonetic Spelling: (hor'-am-ah)
Definition: that which is seen
Usage: a spectacle, vision, that which is seen.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
sight, vision.
From horao; something gazed at, i.e. A spectacle (especially supernatural) -- sight, vision.

A prophet declaring the word of God crying out? That's a possible definition.

Of course, the phrase
The word of God
Wouldn't have to be synonymous with the Bible.

Like we can see here
Luke 3: 2. in the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas,
the word of God
came to John, the son of Zacharias, in the wilderness.

What came to John, I don't think it included this
2 Timothy 4: 13. Bring the cloak that I left at Troas with Carpus when you come.

Great point, I could see it could be a matter of interpretation.

The word can mean vision, as you say. it can also mean something like a spectacle.

I think that the words that Mark and Luke use lean more towards regular seeing.

when Paul has a vision of the man from Macedonia, it looks like he knows it's a vision. Peter in this case doesn't seem to know it's a vision, if that's what it was.

So I could see different possibilities for interpretation.

I would call it a dark place not rubbish. In need of the light of the gospel yes. Venerating sinful men as those who lord it over, no. Making the traditions of men as a divine authority, no.

I would think it is a warning against necromancy a foundation of the law of men called the law of the fathers (oral traditions) . The Jews were guilty promoting speaking with dead relatives or what some called patron saints. Rachel his the teraphim idol image needed to put a face to the disembodied spirit she was trying to commune with . Like King Saul in the Old testament.

I would think it would be like another parable in chapter 16. Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham as the invisible place of the glory of God .. . taking a request from a unbeliever who had died and was buried . And asking first to cool his tongue and when said that door was closed if Lazarus could come as worker with familiar spirit to warn his family .

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Luke 16 22-26

It would seem then after hitting that road block the direction of the parable and a new focus focused on sending Lazarus as a workers with a familiar spirit to his family .

His answer would seem to reflect the Luke 9 account. In effect saying; "This is my beloved Son: hear him"...…. represented by all things written in the law (Moses) and prophets (Elias) .

Then anti-spirit of the rich man who had no faith to hear a God not seen. Demanded he send something a person can see with their eyes as vision .

Again the Spirit of Christ pronounced that if the will not hear all things written in the law (Moses )and the prophets (Elias) then they still will not believe when the Son of God , does raise from the grave.

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Luke 16:27-31

Comparing the spiritual understanding of one account (Luke 9) to spiritual understanding of another (Luke 16)

1. Some people have a gift to tell the different between evil spirit and Holy Spirit, not talk to the dead.

Can you show me if there is a gift to talk to the dead.

There is a gift of prophecy, healing but not talk to the dead.


about Elisha bone.

It is not that the bone have healing power, but God power.

If that bone able to raise the dead, israel king will take it and bring with him every time go to war.

Guaranty win every war, because no body able to kill him

It may cut into 200 pieces and distribute to 200 soldier than every war only need 200 man.

If we define tradition as habit, point out which is the teaching of God may apostle tradition.

I say may, if he tell the truth, if he lie and say bowing down unto statue is the teaching of God, than it is not apostle tradition.

I agree that the Catholic church has a lot of problems in it. It has a lot of humans in it.

At the beginning of Acts chapter 15, Paul and Barnabas come into conflict over a teaching brought by some other people. Paul and Barnabas are both apostles, why don't they just settle it there?

Why do the Christians at the time decide to call together the apostles and elders in Jerusalem and let them decide
for the entire church? And why does James play a major role in the decision, since he is not one of the 12 apostles?

It's these kinds of questions that have led me to think that the Catholic church has some good ideas in it.

are there any Christians who are in authority over you? Any to whom you would show respect (veneration?) as such?
1 Thessalonians 5: 12. But we beg you, brothers, to know those who labor among you, and are
over you in the Lord,
and admonish you, 13. and to
respect and honor them in love
for their work's sake. Be at peace among yourselves.

I think we have a different interpretation of what discerning of spirits is.

So again, a matter of interpretation.

I don't think there is a gift of talking to the Dead. But Jesus did talk with a dead person, Moses.

Right, it was God's power being displayed to the bones of Elisha.

I don't think your logic follows concerning what the king of Israel would have done.
2 Kings 13: 20. Elisha died, and they buried him. Now the bands of the Moabites invaded the land at the coming in of the year. 21. It happened, as they were burying a man, that behold, they spied a band; and they cast the man into the tomb of Elisha: and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.

It's possible that the men doing the burying didn't wait around to see what it happened. They were running away from moabites. It's also possible that by the time the moabites went away, people had forgotten where the grave was, or it had been covered over.

Acts 5: 13. None of the rest dared to join them, however the people honored them. 14. More believers were added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. 15. They even carried out the sick into the streets, and laid them on cots and mattresses, so that as Peter came by, at the least his shadow might overshadow some of them.

Were they healed when Peter's Shadow fell on them? It sounds like it. Did God continue displaying his power that way throughout Peters life? Like even when he was being crucified? Probably not, why kill someone like that when you could keep using him to heal people, like Caesar and his family.

So I think in these situations, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

Well, if you say that athanasius was not using apostolic tradition when he said which books were in the New testament, then who decided which books are in the New testament that you use?