Did Jesus and Paul teach differnt gospels?

^ I go over some of that in (the following) three posts:

https://christianchat.com/threads/w...ed-in-prophecy-see-rev-12.187277/post-4035391

https://christianchat.com/threads/w...ed-in-prophecy-see-rev-12.187277/post-4039972

https://christianchat.com/threads/w...ed-in-prophecy-see-rev-12.187277/post-4039974

Like the servant who wanted mercy, but then wanted to be justified by the law Mt.18:23-35.

Do you think there is no law so anyone can testify of anything and it's valid?

Well there is a guy that says he is Jesus not calles himself "the vicar of Christ" and the "Pope" he must be right then?

Umm no of course not. The law is not gone:

Luke 16:16-17, " 16 “The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it. 17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void."

Therefore since " it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void"

This principle holds true:

John 5:31-32, “If I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is not trustworthy. There is another who testifies about me, and I know that the testimony he gives about me is true.”

Also "the day of the Lord" is this:

Isaiah 13:5-11, " 5 They come from a distant land, from the end of the heavens, the LORD and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land. 6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; as destruction from the Almighty it will come! 7 Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt. 8 They will be dismayed: pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame. 9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the land a desolation and to destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. 11 I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will put an end to the pomp of the arrogant, and lay low the pompous pride of the ruthless.

Revelation 15:1-8, " 1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished. 2 And I saw what appeared to be a sea of glass mingled with fire—and also those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name, standing beside the sea of glass with harps of God in their hands. 3 And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, “Great and amazing are your deeds, O Lord God the Almighty! Just and true are your ways, O King of the nations! 4 Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.” 5 After this I looked, and the sanctuary of the tent of witness in heaven was opened, 6 and out of the sanctuary came the seven angels with the seven plagues, clothed in pure, bright linen, with golden sashes around their chests. 7 And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever, 8 and the sanctuary was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the sanctuary until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.

Certainly I do and we must not confuse "descriptive" passages of scripture (John 5:28-29) with "prescriptive" passages of scripture (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) The good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good) are not the basis or means by which they obtain salvation, but is the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.

Doing good flows inescapably from a heart that is saved and doing evil flows equally inescapably from a heart that is unsaved, as we also see in Romans 2:6-10. *Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.

What did Jesus say in John 3:18? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already.. Are believers described as "those who have done good" or those who have done evil?" Are unbelievers described as those "who have done evil" or "those who have done good?"

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead UNTIL it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which would be like saying that a tree is dead UNTIL it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree) or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that its dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! Remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

The comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10). More later...

Acts 9 -

11 And the Lord said to him, “Having risen up, go into the street called Straight, and seek in the house of Judas the one of Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, 12 and he saw in a vision a man named Ananias, having come and having put the hands on him, so that he might see again.”

13 But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many concerning this man, how many evils he did to Your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all those calling on Your name.”

15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for this man is My vessel of choice to carry My name before the Gentiles, and also kings, and the sons of Israel. 16 For I will show to him how much it behooves him to suffer for My name.”


["it will be told you that which it behooves you to do" (v.6) does not merely consist of the thing you (or someone) had earlier STATED it consisted of (the "having risen up, he was baptized" thing, v.18)]

Well not exaclty, he wanted forgiveness but did not want to forgive others. That is a far from "the law" or "justified by the law" strawman that is not based in anything I said or even what that parable says. The law says do not murder, do not steal, do not lie, love your neighbor, etc.

Matthew 18:23-35, " 23 “Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. 24 When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26 So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’ 27 And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. 28 But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii, and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay what you owe.’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’ 30 He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt. 31 When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place. 32 Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ 34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”

The law teaches mercy, and all judgement is carried out by Jesus anyway. SO no you trying to say im like that servant that does not forgive is not accurate.

Matthew 22:37-40, " 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

James 4:10-12, “Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you. Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?”

James 1:22-25, “And become doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. Because if anyone is a hearer of the Word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror, for he looks at himself, and goes away, and immediately forgets what he was like. But he that looked into the perfect Law of liberty, and continues in it, not becoming a hearer that forgets, but a doer of work, this one shall be blessed in his doing.”

James 2:8-12, “If you truly accomplish the sovereign Law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself, (Lev 19:18) you do well, but if you show partiality, you commit sin, being found guilty by the Law as transgressors. For whoever shall guard all the Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” (Exo 20:14) also said, “Do not murder.” (Exo 20:13) Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of Law. So speak and so do as those who are to be judged by the Law of liberty.”

Luke wrote Acts 9 correct? Was Luke there or was this Paul telling Luke what had happened according to his tesitimony? And lets say that Luke got this directly from Ananias, is he a trustworthy witness?

If Jesus could not be a trustworthy witness how is one who God has not certified trustworthy?

John 5:31-32, “If I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is not trustworthy. There is another who testifies about me, and I know that the testimony he gives about me is true.”

2 or more trustworthy witnesses and/or Duet 13 test. People don;t evevn care for God's words to test someone who speaks in His name.

Acts 11:5 -

""I [Peter] was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision, A CERTAIN VESSEL like a great sheet [/a linen cloth] descending, being let down out of heaven by four corners [G746 - archais ], and it came down as far as me."

I agree works do not save, and much of what tyou say, but Jesus does save and He makes it . But we can call it descriptive, perscriptive it is ignoring what Jesus says and God says, it is not optional:

Acts 3:22-23, " 22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’

Mat 25:31-46, “And when the Son of Aḏam comes in His esteem, and all the set-apart messengers with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His esteem. And all the nations shall be gathered before Him, and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats. And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the Sovereign shall say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the reign prepared for you from the foundation of the world for I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me, I was in prison and you came to Me. Then the righteous shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry and we fed You, or thirsty and gave You to drink? And when did we see You a stranger and took You in, or naked and clothed You? And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and we came to You? And the Sovereign shall answer and say to them, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you did it to Me. He shall then also say to those on the left hand, ‘Go away from Me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his messengers for I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, was naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me. Then they also shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not serve You? Then He shall answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.”

Matthew 24:45-51, “Who then is a trustworthy and wise servant, whom his master set over his household, to give them food in season? Blessed is that servant whom his master, having come, shall find so doing. Truly, I say to you that he shall set him over all his possessions. But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming, and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, the master of that servant shall come on a day when he does not expect it, and at an hour he does not know, and shall cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites – there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

“does not obey” is word #G544 - apeitheó: to disobey, Original Word: ἀπειθέω, Part of Speech: Verb, Transliteration: apeitheó, Phonetic Spelling: (ap-i-theh'-o), Short Definition: I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, Definition: I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, refuse conformity.

it says the people of God keep His commands. and those that don't are liars.

1 John 2:3-6, " 3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

Now without doubt its HIS SPIRIT that causes the change and empowers the action:

Hebrews 10:16-17, " 16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” 17 then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

John 3:18-19, " 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

I will stand in front of Him just like every being will, He is the judge not me, I just want to serve Him.

Finally it is very clear, we can call it descriptive, perscriptive it is ignoring what Jesus says and God says, it is not optional

John 5:28-29, " 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

I would offer a thought that I think you explained and agree with in you breakdown of James 2, that those who believe will do what Jesus says, not perfectly but they will follow Him and grow in His ways. I think that those who do not believe, even if they claim to will no do what He says to do (those who have done good to the resurrection of life) and therefore have a imitation faith and will not do what He says but find and excuse not to (those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment). Again I will stand in front of Him just like every being will, He is the judge not me, I just want to serve Him. I do not place myself in eithr catagory nor anyone else, I just want to do His will, and this discussion with you is a little side tracked I know but I think it leads to the main topic also, I want to follow Him as He said. He said His words will never pass, the ones He spoke while with the disciples. God sais Jesus is the one we have to pbey, not optional, I take this serious.

In the light of that I want to bring this verse back up I think it displayes perfectly what I mean:

John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

I fully know where I stand and we dont have to keep going over and over but I have to say. these verses as an addendum to my last post to you as I just noticed this post of yours.

Revelation 14:12-13, " 12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

obedience does not save Jesus does, but obedience is not optional.

John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

The vision was about not shunning Gentiles, it in the text. Im not new to the word..

Acts 10:28-29, " 28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean. 29 So when I was sent for, I came without objection. I ask then why you sent for me.”

I posted this awhile back:

[quoting that post]

Acts 3:21 [Peter speaking to "ye men of Israel," v.12 (unsaved persons as noted in v.13-15,17,19)] then states: "whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." [in contrast to that which He had theretofore kept "hidden in God"/was as yet undisclosed]

In vv.13 and 26 the phrase "His Servant Jesus" (they had not been expecting the "suffering servant" aspects of His Person, only the "reigning-in-power King" aspects, though both aspects had been prophesied in the OT; chpt 3's point is Peter telling them they'd overlooked the former of these two aspects ['His Suffering Servant'], and thus had a hand [themselves] in fulfilling that very thing, vv.13-15), but this was not saying that "everything" was at this point in time (the time of Acts 3) fully fulfilled; and...

...there are TWO "raise" senses spoken of in Acts 3... v.15 speaking of His being "raised from the dead," but the other being "raised" to a position of prominence BEFORE His death (that is, to the position of 'a Prophet like unto Moses'...'raise up unto you of your brethren like unto me [Moses]; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you' and 'UNTO YOU FIRST God, having raised up [to a position of prominence BEFORE His death] His Servant Jesus, SENT him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities'). The "ALL things which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets" (meaning, OT prophecies) have not yet been fully fulfilled, but remain for a yet-future time...

[end quoting that post]

John 3- 36 …. those who do not BELIEVE..... most translations say believe. just wanted to point that out. carry on being a good judeaizer.

Just a reminder;

John 14:6, “Jesus said to him, “I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Matthew 7:24-27, " 24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”

I see you like to slander with name calling,

Lets look at the greek?

John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

“does not obey” is word #G544 - apeitheó: to disobey, Original Word: ἀπειθέω, Part of Speech: Verb, Transliteration: apeitheó, Phonetic Spelling: (ap-i-theh'-o), Short Definition: I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, Definition: I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, refuse conformity.

G544
ἀπειθέω
Verb
I disobey, rebel, am disloyal

Should I rather go with the crowd than what Jesus actually says?

I agree fully. I have seen this used in a manner that "we regard Him no longer" to mean Jesus words are to be cast aside for Paul's. Again one of the things that got me to study this topic. Also thank you for the reply.

So what I hear you saying is that God showed Peter a personal revelation [/vision] about how he [Peter] should [personally] treat the uncircumcised Gentiles... and no one else witnessed his "vision," but that Luke was to record it nevertheless [for others and us to read] because...?? [why?]

Im not sure im follwoing you but I think so.

Yes and Peter is a trustwory testimony becasue Jesus testified of Him, Jesus direct words. It is not Peter saying Jesus chose me as a disciple, we have Jesus direct OWN words choosing Peter.

Luke 5:9-11, " 9 For he and all who were with him were astonished at the catch of fish that they had taken, 10 and so also were James and John, sons of Zebedee, who were partners with Simon. And Jesus said to Simon, “Do not be afraid; from now on you will be catching men.” 11 And when they had brought their boats to land, they left everything and followed him.

In 2 Timothy 2:10 Paul, in speaking of "the elect [plural]" in that verse, I do not believe is speaking of those saved "in this present age [singular]," but instead, is speaking of Part C (so to speak) of v.15 above, when he says, "Because of this, I endure all things for the sake of the elect [plural], so that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory."

(the precise word ^ [bold] used elsewhere only in Matthew 24:22,24,31, Mark 13:20,22,27, the "far-future" aspects of the OLIVET DISCOURSE and speaking of the believing remnant of Israel who will come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture,"/WITHIN the tribulation period years--these go on to DO the INVITING to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER"/earthly MK [i.e. "the WISE [of Israel]"])