Not By Works

posthuman · Oct 23, 2019

@limmuwd welcome to CC

i listened to a few of your ramblings today on my commute. there were a couple points i wanted to bring up; i'll start with this one and let's see where it goes?

you said Jesus overcame by not ever giving in to temptation - you said, this is how He overcame -- but this is not how one overcomes; it is how one withstands. if you face an enemy with your sword and you parry each of his attacks, you haven't yet overcome him; you have only withstood his onslaught. if an archer stands in his parapet firing arrows at you and you raise your shield and block them all, the archer is not overcome; he is merely stymied.

posthuman · Oct 23, 2019

posthuman said:

@limmuwd here's a second point:

you said, God has a finite number of thrones in the kingdom, and that if a person isn't found worthy, God will offer it to the next person instead. now, you should know about me, i'm a mathematician. so the first thing that popped into my head when i heard you say this was a ball of questions such as 'how many?' and 'how many thrones would God make? how would He decide? guess how many of His creations would make themselves worthy?' and 'how good of an estimator is God?' and 'what if there are too many thrones, or too few?' plus about 900 other similar things that need answering.

the next thing was to explore the boundary conditions, because that's what mathematicians do, too. you had said in this context, that there are a finite number of thrones to be filled and this is the trigger for the age of the Gentiles to be completed. so imagine that God ordained N thrones and that N-1 of them have been filled. imagine there are k > 1 people who are 'vying' for this throne. in your paradigm, i take it, God is watching with great anticipation and interest hoping one of these k people will be found worthy to fill the last throne. i do not know the details of the function that you believe which takes an 'ordinary person' and turns it into a 'worthy to sit on throne' person, but say at least 2 of these k people are both 1 unit away from crossing the 'worthy line'
..God sits on edge of His seat and bites His holy fingernails..
now imagine what scenarios are possible:

at the last minute they both screw up. 0 of k become worthy
- God extends the age of the Gentiles indefinitely with an empty throne
  - is it possible no one ever becomes worthy? empty throne forever, age of Gentiles forever?
    - why or why not?
  - consider the inverse problem - are there a finite number of people who will become worthy?
1 out of the k becomes worthy and the other doesn't
- God is pleased to grant the last throne to that 1, ends the age of the Gentiles, and no one from that point on until the end of time has the opportunity to reign with Him.
  - does anyone become worthy yet not have the opportunity to be rewarded as one who is worthy?
2 of the k become worthy. there are two cases:
- one becomes worthy a unit of time before the other
  - what happens to the other? he or she is worthy to sit on a throne but God doesn't have a throne for them anymore? treated like the unworthy for eternity because of a nanosecond's pace vs another person's?
- both become worthy simultaneously
  - who gets the throne? what happens to the other worthy one? treated like the unworthy for all eternity because.. why?

so i'm wondering if you have any answers?
and what the implications about the person of God are, according to the answers?

thanks.

UnderGrace · Oct 23, 2019

BillG said:

I am thinking he is not since this is a church he has in his Youtube videos

Mt Zion Fellowship in southern California.
Hi mentor was Robert B. Thompson (whoever that is).

http://www.wor.org/book/3319/the-theology-of-robert-b-thompson

Not good.

posthuman · Oct 23, 2019

UnderGrace said:

without reading it i'm going to guess he has a 'prescient' view of the foreknowledge of God . . ?

UnderGrace · Oct 23, 2019

posthuman said:

I wouldn't be surprised... not easy to read that gibberish.

But here is a snippet...

http://www.wor.org/book/3319/the-theology-of-robert-b-thompson#Not by Faith Alone

calibob · Oct 23, 2019

posthuman · Oct 23, 2019

UnderGrace said:

that's interesting

from that link:

The seeming discrepancy between _____________ and _____________ proceeds from seeking to interpret the Bible deductively—fastening on a few passages and ignoring the others. The Bible has to be interpreted inductively. The believer must accept every passage of Scripture as God’s Word. Any seeming contradictions must be understood as proceeding from our limited understanding of the whole counsel of God.

- R. B. Thompson ((blanks mine, because it has general application))

which is a great segue to another point i wanted to make:

limmuwd said:

one thing that is incredibly commonly taught but which does not stand the test of scripture is that Christ is not God.

limmuwd said:

can i invite you to do some background reading - to search the scripture and see if this is true?
here is a thread, which has actually stayed more-or-less on-topic for its lifespan, wherein a great deal of the scripture on the subject is collected:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/christ-is-god.153694/

He is fully God and is never not God. He set aside His glory and took the form of a servant, becoming fully man. He speaks as God and as man, sometimes simultaneously, sometimes one or the other.

another thing a mathematician does is collect facts and lay them out, without presuppositions. then he looks for relationships in them and seeks to discern the truth from them, however puzzling it may be. that Christ is God is fact; scripture says so.

UnderGrace · Oct 23, 2019

posthuman said:

Amen and Amen !!

Je suis tres fatigue........ of all his false teachings.

Thank you for the link

I hope he responds, typically he has a set script, so I doubt you will venture into any type of critical thinking with him....but you never know.

posthuman · Oct 23, 2019

UnderGrace said:

Christ has not done it all for us! It is the sword of the Lord and of Gideon.

ok! yeah!

If Gideon does not do his part, neither will the Lord. We cannot enter our inheritance in our own strength and wisdom.

wait, if Gideon's part isn't his own strength or wisdom, what is his part?

But Christ will enable us to be more than a conqueror if we put on our armor and hold up the shield of faith.

how do i put on my armor and hold up my shield without my own strength or wisdom?
i can't do it with my own strength or wisdom - like you just said .. ?
so Christ must put my armor on - and He must hold up my shield: that must be the enabling itself.
His wisdom and His strength 'made perfect in weakness'

The Word of God is the sword of the Spirit, by far the most powerful weapon in the universe.

So then it is not in him that willeth, nor in him that runneth, but in God that showeth mercy.

limmuwd · Oct 23, 2019

posthuman said:

So are agreeing with me that obedience to God's commandments are required! Very good. So many here claim they are "saved" without having to do anything other than "believe" mentally, without any repentance or obeying of the commandments of God given through Christ.

It is nice to know that others are hearing from the Spirit as well.

Blessings!

posthuman · Oct 23, 2019

posthuman said:

@limmuwd here's a second point:

you said, God has a finite number of thrones in the kingdom, and that if a person isn't found worthy, God will offer it to the next person instead. now, you should know about me, i'm a mathematician. so the first thing that popped into my head when i heard you say this was a ball of questions such as 'how many?' and 'how many thrones would God make? how would He decide? guess how many of His creations would make themselves worthy?' and 'how good of an estimator is God?' and 'what if there are too many thrones, or too few?' plus about 900 other similar things that need answering.

the next thing was to explore the boundary conditions, because that's what mathematicians do, too. you had said in this context, that there are a finite number of thrones to be filled and this is the trigger for the age of the Gentiles to be completed. so imagine that God ordained N thrones and that N-1 of them have been filled. imagine there are k > 1 people who are 'vying' for this throne. in your paradigm, i take it, God is watching with great anticipation and interest hoping one of these k people will be found worthy to fill the last throne. i do not know the details of the function that you believe which takes an 'ordinary person' and turns it into a 'worthy to sit on throne' person, but say at least 2 of these k people are both 1 unit away from crossing the 'worthy line'
..God sits on edge of His seat and bites His holy fingernails..
now imagine what scenarios are possible:

at the last minute they both screw up. 0 of k become worthy
- God extends the age of the Gentiles indefinitely with an empty throne
  - is it possible no one ever becomes worthy? empty throne forever, age of Gentiles forever?
    - why or why not?
  - consider the inverse problem - are there a finite number of people who will become worthy?
1 out of the k becomes worthy and the other doesn't
- God is pleased to grant the last throne to that 1, ends the age of the Gentiles, and no one from that point on until the end of time has the opportunity to reign with Him.
  - does anyone become worthy yet not have the opportunity to be rewarded as one who is worthy?
2 of the k become worthy. there are two cases:
- one becomes worthy a unit of time before the other
  - what happens to the other? he or she is worthy to sit on a throne but God doesn't have a throne for them anymore? treated like the unworthy for eternity because of a nanosecond's pace vs another person's?
- both become worthy simultaneously
  - who gets the throne? what happens to the other worthy one? treated like the unworthy for all eternity because.. why?

so i'm wondering if you have any answers?
and what the implications about the person of God are, according to the answers?

thanks.

p.s. @limmuwd

we're fellow vets, and there are a number of others here at CC. i don't go to 'worthy forums' anymore either. but i left of my own accord

posthuman · Oct 23, 2019

limmuwd said:

yes - as the hymn goes, 'knees will be broken, for those who don't know how' and the other song, 'you're gonna bow, either way!'
what more impetus does someone who fears God need to willfully & dutifully kneel before Him in obeisance?

wisdom requires it - and Christ is for us, wisdom from God.

limmuwd said:

so is that, not actually saved? or saved, but not super-saved?

calibob · Oct 23, 2019

Robert B. Thompson

I though I smelled a RAT!
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For other people named Robert Thompson, see Robert Thompson (disambiguation).
Robert Blashel Thompson (October 1, 1811 – August 27, 1841) was an associate of Joseph Smith, Jr. and leader in the Latter-day Saint movement, and an official historian of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

BillG · Oct 23, 2019

My first thoughts was Mormon then I leant towards JW.

RBT was an aligned to Joseph Smith Jr.
Therefore what we know as Mormon/LDS.

UnderGrace · Oct 23, 2019

calibob said:

Robert B. Thompson

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to navigation Jump to search
For other people named Robert Thompson, see Robert Thompson (disambiguation).
Robert Blashel Thompson (October 1, 1811 – August 27, 1841) was an associate of Joseph Smith, Jr. and leader in the Latter-day Saint movement, and an official historian of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Not the same guy.

calibob · Oct 23, 2019

1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but put the spirits to the test to see whether they are from God; for many false teachers have gone out into the world. World English Bible Beloved, don't believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. Young's Literal Translation

calibob · Oct 23, 2019

UnderGrace said:

Ooops, well I started looking because I knew a prosperity/name it and claim it preacher named Dwight Thompson and the one I posted was the only Robert B. Thompson that I found with Bing who had any Theological credentials.

BillG · Oct 23, 2019

limmuwd said:

The Holy Spirit?
Were the commandments given through Christ or given by Christ?

John 13:34-35
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

dcontroversal · Oct 23, 2019

Lafftur said:

Exactly......those not bidden (Gentiles) are called guests twice in the parable of the wedding supper!

posthuman · Oct 23, 2019

PennEd said:

the wife and the bride is a great mystery

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