Not By Works

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CherieR

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
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Oh I didn't take offense. :) I just think we could all be a little more polite and considerate..
Though I know some are incapable of that. :rolleyes:
I agree with what you were saying about being polite and considerate. I wasn't referring to you when I said, some take offense more easily while some don't. It was more a general statement I was making.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
7,075
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No. no nerve. ;) I know who I am dealing with, and it's not really you. The battle may be played out through you and a few others on here, but the True battle is with the enemy in the heavens.

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the lords of this age, rulers of this darkness, against spiritual wickedness in the heavens." - Eph 6:12

May you break free from their control over your lives and emotions and "take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand." - Eph 6:13
wow, no cult thinking here!!!

I mean, if you think that the sign of one properly having the full armor of God is that one agrees with you, that certainly sounds rational and reasonable thinking..
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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No. no nerve. ;) I know who I am dealing with, and it's not really you. The battle may be played out through you and a few others on here, but the True battle is with the enemy in the heavens.

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the lords of this age, rulers of this darkness, against spiritual wickedness in the heavens." - Eph 6:12

May you break free from their control over your lives and emotions and "take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand." - Eph 6:13
No nerve struck huh? We went from phony niceties, to no niceties and panicked business like demeanor, to now the enemy is speaking through me!

But this point STILL stands. ALL 3 members of the Trinity were Present and separate, at the same time, during Jesus' Baptism. You can't slink away from that fact that destroys YOURs, not the Lord's, doctrine.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
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What the Bible clearly does declare, and the Lord God has commissioned me to teach, is that to receive the promises of God in Rev 2 & 3, we MUST truly "Repent" and "Walk Worthy." Period there is no debate on this. It's Bible through and through.

Sadly the false 'faith and prosperity' message has reemerged in the assemblies, and the majority have been swept up in it. So many believe they will hear "well done good and faithful servant" in that Day, when they have not "done well." The false preacher-men behind the pulpits tell them weekly that 'Jesus did it all for them', and H loves them just as they are. I stand against such heresy.

The "strong delusion" sent by God is thick upon the church at large today that "preaches" a false Gospel of 'believe and receive.'
I recall the Apostles were forbidden as well to teach the Truth, and said, as I say now... " I must obey God rather than man."

To enlighten you... John 3:16 wasn't spoken to the crowds, but only to a Pharisee. And John in chapter 6, and especially 13-17 Jesus is speaking ONLY to "disciples." And of course Jesus' command to "Repent" in Rev 2 & 3, is given directly to the churches, not the world.
limmuwd,

I’ve pondered Rev 2 & 3 where Christ is speaking to the 7 churches about their works and overcoming.....

What's been shown to me is that those works do not pertain to salvation or “maintaining” salvation, they pertain to the Bride.

All true believers are saved but, not all are the Bride. The Bride has to overcome what is written in the 7 letters to the 7 churches.

I asked the Lord once, “Are all believers the Bride?”

He responded with a question, “Are all Navy soldiers Navy Seals?”


Many will completely adamantly argue this point with me but, it is what it is. :love:(y)
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
7,740
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limmuwd,

I’ve pondered Rev 2 & 3 where Christ is speaking to the 7 churches about their works and overcoming.....

What's been shown to me is that those works do not pertain to salvation or “maintaining” salvation, they pertain to the Bride.

All true believers are saved but, not all are the Bride. The Bride has to overcome what is written in the 7 letters to the 7 churches.

I asked the Lord once, “Are all believers the Bride?”

He responded with a question, “Are all Navy soldiers Navy Seals?”

Many will completely adamantly argue this point with me but, it is what it is. :love:(y)
The bride is with the Lord at the marriage Supper.

Where are these other saved believers?
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
7,740
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There are “guests” at the marriage supper.
There are too many passages to list that say the Church is the Bride of Christ. So if you are a member of the Church, a part of the Body of Christ, you are the Bride.

I think the case can be made that the OT Saints will be in attendance, although they themselves are not the Bride.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,247
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limmuwd,

I’ve pondered Rev 2 & 3 where Christ is speaking to the 7 churches about their works and overcoming.....

What's been shown to me is that those works do not pertain to salvation or “maintaining” salvation, they pertain to the Bride.

All true believers are saved but, not all are the Bride. The Bride has to overcome what is written in the 7 letters to the 7 churches.

I asked the Lord once, “Are all believers the Bride?”

He responded with a question, “Are all Navy soldiers Navy Seals?”

Many will completely adamantly argue this point with me but, it is what it is. :love:(y)
You already know I love you so let me ask, is it like the regular believers are GUESTS and the overcomers are the BRIDE?

Did I understand that correctly? Ima do a study on that and see what I come to!
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
3,269
669
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Thank you for your question. Indeed this is a topic which is very deep, especially as it involves two realms: the physical and spiritual.

In the book of Hebrews we find some very interesting passages of Truth, which do not fit neatly into our modern theology and understanding of the Godhead. Beginning with Chapter 1 -

"God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again:


I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:


“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
7 And of the angels He says:


“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”
8 But to the Son He says:


“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.

- Heb 1:1-9

Man, there's a lot here. Jesus was chosen "above His fellows"?
And although the worlds (plural) were "made through Him" (as the Word), God had to "appoint Him heir of all things" (see also Romans 8:17, to seemingly add to the confusion.) As well, "God made Him (Jesus) both Lord and Christ" because of His obedience to the One who is "greater than He."

I'd love to sit & chat in person with some on this site, pray, open our Bibles, invite the Holy Spirit to teach us, and delve into the Word and fellowship: as I do with others here & SoCal, and as opportunity arises when I'm on the road.

One thing I am gaining understanding on is that when Jesus walked from the tomb that Resurrection morning, He was something that He had not been before, and that even God is not... the "firstborn of creation"; now an immortal "flesh & bone" human, fully divine.
I believe this is when Christ Jesus was fully "begotten of the Father."

There is a convergence of the realms coming. Jesus will have "brothers" made "in His image" who will come forth "as He is" in that Day, and will be His "co-heirs" of "all things."

These the are things I think about constantly, as the Spirit of God speaks to me concerning His great plan and purpose.
This that I've shared here is only the frost on the tip of the iceberg.

Peace & Blessings, Wisdom & Understanding to you, and all who walk with Jesus.
Woah... that posted too fast... hoping I have time to actually add MY CONTENT, lol!!

K, I think I am not sure what your answer actually is. :D

[see next post, if I don't finish here, HA!]

So... I'm thinking... you don't really think Jesus wasn't the same "Person" before He had a physical body, do you??

As to the rest, are you thinking something like this? :


Okay, I see the phrase "above his fellows" here:

Deuteronomy 17:14-20 [NET Bible] -

Provision for Kingship

14 When you come to the land the Lord your God is giving you and take it over and live in it and then say, “I will select a king like all the nations surrounding me,” 15 you must select without fail a king whom the Lord your God chooses. From among your fellow citizens you must appoint a king – you may not designate a foreigner who is not one of your fellow Israelites. 16 Moreover, he must not accumulate horses for himself or allow the people to return to Egypt to do so, for the Lord has said you must never again return that way. 17 Furthermore, he must not marry many wives lest his affections turn aside, and he must not accumulate much silver and gold. 18 When he sits on his royal throne he must make a copy of this law on a scroll given to him by the Levitical priests. 19 It must be with him constantly and he must read it as long as he lives, so that he may learn to revere the Lord his God and observe all the words of this law and these statutes and carry them out. 20 Then he will not exalt himself above his fellow citizens or turn from the commandments to the right or left, and he and his descendants will enjoy many years ruling over his kingdom in Israel.

Hebrews 7 ["but the word of the oath, which is after [time-wise] the Law"] -

22 By so much also [meaning, "oath"], Jesus has become the/a guarantee of a better covenant.
23 And indeed those having become priests are many, because of being prevented from continuing by death. 24 But because of His abiding to the age, He holds the permanent priesthood, 25 wherefore also He is able to save to the uttermost those drawing near to God through Him, always living for to intercede for them.
26 For such a high priest indeed was fitting for us, holy, innocent, undefiled, having been separated from sinners, and having become higher than the heavens, 27 who has no need every day, as the first high priests, to offer up sacrifices for the own sins, then for those of the people; for He did this once for all, having offered up Himself. 28 For the Law appoints as high priests men having weakness; but the word of the oath, which is after [time-wise] the Law, a Son having been perfected [*G5048 - teteleiōmenon; middle or passive] to/unto the age.

*G5048 -

"Cognate: 5048 teleióō – to consummate, reaching the end-stage, i.e. working through the entire process (stages) to reach the final phase (conclusion). See 5056 (telos).

"[This root (tel-) means "reaching the end (aim)." It is well-illustrated with the old pirate's telescope, unfolding (extending out) one stage at a time to function at full-strength (capacity effectiveness).]" [and] "to bring to full development" [quotes from BibleHub]

Luke 13:32 -

"32 And He said to them, "Having gone, say to that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and I complete cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I am perfected.'

Hebrews 5 -

5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become a high priest, but the One having said to Him:
“You are My Son,
today I have begotten You.”a
6 Just as He says also in another place:
“You are a priest to the age,
according to the order of Melchizedek.”b

7 He in the days of His flesh, having offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One being able to save Him from death, and having been heard because of reverent submission, 8 though being a Son, He learned obedience from the things He suffered, 9 and having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all those obeying [*G5219 - present participle active] Him, 10 having been designated by God a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

*G5219 -

"Cognate: 5219 hypakoúō (from 5259 /hypó, "under" and 191 /akoúō, "hear") – properly, to obey what is heard (literally, "under hearing"). See 5218 (hypakoē).

"5219 /hypakoúō ("obey") is acting under the authority of the one speaking, i.e. really listening to the one giving the charge (order). 5219 /hypakoúō ("to hearken, obey") suggests attentively listening, i.e. fully compliant (responsive).

"[5219 (hypakoúō) is an "intensification" of the simple verb "to listen" (191 /akoúō, "hear").]" [quote from BibleHub]
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
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There are too many passages to list that say the Church is the Bride of Christ. So if you are a member of the Church, a part of the Body of Christ, you are the Bride.

I think the case can be made that the OT Saints will be in attendance, although they themselves are not the Bride.
Scriptures can be twisted. Total reliance on the Holy Spirit to teach us the scriptures is when we find truth.

There are many things that are just simply hidden from our view - things just not necessary for us to know and has absolutely nothing to do with salvation. God reveals truth to us in layers as needed.

There is no reason to discuss this any further. :love:
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
3,716
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You already know I love you so let me ask, is it like the regular believers are GUESTS and the overcomers are the BRIDE?

Did I understand that correctly? Ima do a study on that and see what I come to!
Yes, I love you too Hevosmies. :love:

Yes, the "guests" are saved believers and in the Kingdom of God. The overcomers of the 7 letters to the 7 churches are the Bride.

You may want to start your study in Matthew 22. Enjoy!

This topic can be very controversial and there's just no reason to even argue over it - totally unnecessary.

Much love to you! :love:
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
7,740
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Scriptures can be twisted. Total reliance on the Holy Spirit to teach us the scriptures is when we find truth.

There are many things that are just simply hidden from our view - things just not necessary for us to know and has absolutely nothing to do with salvation. God reveals truth to us in layers as needed.

There is no reason to discuss this any further. :love:
I mean I hear what you are saying, but I didn't bring this topic up, and please be careful that a possible teaching of the Holy Spirit isn't confused with a private interpretation.
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
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I mean I hear what you are saying, but I didn't bring this topic up, and please be careful that a possible teaching of the Holy Spirit isn't confused with a private interpretation.
And those of us who have been around here for a long time have seen some twisting and opinionated interpretation of scriptures, for sure PennEd
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
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THANK YOU MANAGMENT! You caught our Local Red X Catholic Troll, in two hours, today.

I will give you a STANDING OVATION! GOOD JOB!





Everyone, the moderator banned our local TROLL in TWO HOURS this time. Click on the RED X in my post: #112,191

He got the Red X Catholic Troll in only 2 Hrs. and 3 Min. with his NEW NAME 382AD, all you have to do is point at his new name and just hover over it and you will see what time he Joined, and what time he was banned.
Poor troll didn’t have enough toys to play with as a child. It’s new name is heretics-are-not-believers.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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so let me ask, is it like the regular believers are GUESTS and the overcomers are the BRIDE?
Did I understand that correctly?
Keep in mind a couple of things when studying this out:

--saying "the churchES" (like in Rev2&3) is not identical to saying "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [<--all those saved "in this present age [singular]" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN)]; "the churchES" are made up of both believers AND those who come in His name but are not actually "saved," whereas "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" consists of ONLY believers/saved persons [all those saved "in this present age [singular; (Eph1:20-23 WHEN)]" (not all saints of all OTHER time periods--tho they are "saved" also!)]

--the "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" is NOT "the Guests [plural]" nor the "10 [or even 5] Virgins [plural]" nor "the Servants [plural]" of that future, limited, specific time-period leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth [in Rev19; and the Olivet Discourse Subject]

--"the Church which is His body" (all those saved "in this present age [singular]" [Eph1:20-23 WHEN]) have [/will have] come to faith [and is "completed" (that is, at our "Rapture/Departure")] BEFORE "the Guests [plural]" are even issued the "INVITATION" TO "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [the EARTHLY MK age] and they accept the "invitation" having come to faith WITHIN the trib years (FOLLOWING our Rapture/Departure; that is DURING the trib years); so this is a matter of "CHRONOLOGY"/"SEQUENCE" (WHAT happens WHEN in relation [time-wise] to WHAT OTHER THING)


I made a post some time back, about "correctly apportioning the word of truth" (related to this)… here is just a portion of that post:

[quoting that post]

Here is the problem with using a "tribulation period [CONTEXT]" verse ^ and [incorrectly] applying it in a direct sense to "the Church which is His body"...

Take note of this SAME GREEK WORD used in a passage that IS addressed specifically to [to/for/about] the Church which is His body (unlike the above-mentioned/quoted verse and passage/context [not shown in this current post--TDW]):

https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/5-10.htm

"the One having died for us, so that [/in order that] whether we might watch [G1127 - grēgorōmen] or we might sleep [ same two Grk words as in verse 6!! see that verse!], we may live together with [G4862 - syn - denoting 'UNION' with] Him." 1 Thessalonians 5:10.

[note: not the "G3326 - meta - accompanying / 'with'" word, used of others elsewhere, like the "10 Virgins" parable, Matt25:10 (re: the "marriage FEAST/SUPPER" [i.e. the earthly MK] but which is NOT re: the "MARRIAGE" itself!)]

The problem is, at least with some (not saying YOU), is that they do not believe that Paul's epistles are the word of the Lord/the word of God. [see John 16:12-15 (Jesus said) "I have YET MANY THINGS TO SAY unto you, BUT..."] ; and "the word of the Lord" in 1Th4:15(1:8); 2Th3:1; 1Pet1:25 [see also *1Tim1:4, below]; and "the word of God" in 1Cor14:36[-38]; 2Cor2:17; 4:2; 6:17; Eph6:17; Col1:25 ['to complete the word of God']; 1Th2:13[2x]; 2Tim2:9; Heb4:12; 6:5; 13:7; 1Pet1:23; 2Pet3:5; 1Jn2:14 [to the 'young men']; Rev1:2,9; 6:9; 19:13; 20:4b]

[end quoting that post]

[see any distinction between THIS ^ passage and the ones from the Olivet Discourse?? (example not provided here)]

____________

*1 Timothy 1:4 -

"nor to give heed to myths and endless genealogies, which bring speculations rather than God's stewardship [*G3622 - oikonomian], which is in faith."

*"[G3622] Definition: stewardship, administration

Usage: management of household affairs, stewardship, administration.

HELPS Word-studies

3622 oikonomía (from 3621 /oikonoméō, "a steward, managing a household") – properly, a stewardship, management (administration), i.e. where a person looks after another's affairs (resources).

[A "dispensation" can also refer to a special period of time (management). But this is a secondary (not primary) meaning of 3622 (oikonomía).]"

[end quoting from BibleHub]


Ephesians 3:2 -

"Surely you have heard of the administration [G3622 - oikonomian] of God's grace, having been given to me [Paul] toward you [corporate, plural 'you'],..."

[see also 2Cor11:2 (Paul's task) "to present A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR] to Christ"]
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord.

what level is enough in that verse? i know all christians are being sanctified. but i also believe even if you just got saved dont have time to repent of all things and die you go to heaven still. so what about that verse?
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
2,556
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Man, there's a lot here. Jesus was chosen "above His fellows"?
And although the worlds (plural) were "made through Him" (as the Word), God had to "appoint Him heir of all things" (see also Romans 8:17, to seemingly add to the confusion.) As well, "God made Him (Jesus) both Lord and Christ" because of His obedience to the One who is "greater than He."
Who then are his fellows? His own co-equal? Certainly, these are not the angels for Jesus is above the angels, who are called only as ministering spirits. Obviously, the two members of the Godhead. Noticed Jesus made the world for BY him the worlds are created for without him was not anything made that was made (John 1:2). Jesus is the Creator. Well, the “through” confuses Jesus as only an instrumental, an agency or being used by God the Father on the creation but that is not true. Jesus also made the world.

God the Father could appoint him (Christ) to inherit all things because all things are his. The divine appointment does not degrade his co-equality with the nature of God. Christ is chosen or appointed to have a responsibility for their creation since angels are not creators and men as well are not creators but both are only created beings.

The phrase “God made Him” does not mean he was created, but rather appointed. The “greater” is not to be meant “better”. Now, what you failed to notice on the passage of Hebrews 1 to be sure of their equality are the following:

  • Jesus according to the Father should be worship. V6
  • The Father said to Christ, he is God. V9.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,141
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Who then are his fellows? His own co-equal? Certainly, these are not the angels for Jesus is above the angels, who are called only as ministering spirits. Obviously, the two members of the Godhead. Noticed Jesus made the world for BY him the worlds are created for without him was not anything made that was made (John 1:2). Jesus is the Creator. Well, the “through” confuses Jesus as only an instrumental, an agency or being used by God the Father on the creation but that is not true. Jesus also made the world.

God the Father could appoint him (Christ) to inherit all things because all things are his. The divine appointment does not degrade his co-equality with the nature of God. Christ is chosen or appointed to have a responsibility for their creation since angels are not creators and men as well are not creators but both are only created beings.

The phrase “God made Him” does not mean he was created, but rather appointed. The “greater” is not to be meant “better”. Now, what you failed to notice on the passage of Hebrews 1 to be sure of their equality are the following:

  • Jesus according to the Father should be worship. V6
  • The Father said to Christ, he is God. V9.
All his posts come from the watchtower.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
All his posts come from the watchtower.
I suspected this a while ago.

Make sense, based on what he states ....travels from place to place speaking to congregations.

It was obvious he was looking for converts from the get go, they always act so nice and gentile....part of the gig.:rolleyes: