Not By Works

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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@limmuwd welcome to CC :)

i listened to a few of your ramblings today on my commute. there were a couple points i wanted to bring up; i'll start with this one and let's see where it goes?

you said Jesus overcame by not ever giving in to temptation - you said, this is how He overcame -- but this is not how one overcomes; it is how one withstands. if you face an enemy with your sword and you parry each of his attacks, you haven't yet overcome him; you have only withstood his onslaught. if an archer stands in his parapet firing arrows at you and you raise your shield and block them all, the archer is not overcome; he is merely stymied.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,887
6,488
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@limmuwd welcome to CC :)

i listened to a few of your ramblings today on my commute. there were a couple points i wanted to bring up; i'll start with this one and let's see where it goes?

you said Jesus overcame by not ever giving in to temptation - you said, this is how He overcame -- but this is not how one overcomes; it is how one withstands. if you face an enemy with your sword and you parry each of his attacks, you haven't yet overcome him; you have only withstood his onslaught. if an archer stands in his parapet firing arrows at you and you raise your shield and block them all, the archer is not overcome; he is merely stymied.
@limmuwd here's a second point:

you said, God has a finite number of thrones in the kingdom, and that if a person isn't found worthy, God will offer it to the next person instead. now, you should know about me, i'm a mathematician. so the first thing that popped into my head when i heard you say this was a ball of questions such as 'how many?' and 'how many thrones would God make? how would He decide? guess how many of His creations would make themselves worthy?' and 'how good of an estimator is God?' and 'what if there are too many thrones, or too few?' plus about 900 other similar things that need answering.


the next thing was to explore the boundary conditions, because that's what mathematicians do, too. you had said in this context, that there are a finite number of thrones to be filled and this is the trigger for the age of the Gentiles to be completed. so imagine that God ordained N thrones and that N-1 of them have been filled. imagine there are k > 1 people who are 'vying' for this throne. in your paradigm, i take it, God is watching with great anticipation and interest hoping one of these k people will be found worthy to fill the last throne. i do not know the details of the function that you believe which takes an 'ordinary person' and turns it into a 'worthy to sit on throne' person, but say at least 2 of these k people are both 1 unit away from crossing the 'worthy line'
..God sits on edge of His seat and bites His holy fingernails..
now imagine what scenarios are possible:

  • at the last minute they both screw up. 0 of k become worthy
    • God extends the age of the Gentiles indefinitely with an empty throne
      • is it possible no one ever becomes worthy? empty throne forever, age of Gentiles forever?
        • why or why not?
      • consider the inverse problem - are there a finite number of people who will become worthy?
  • 1 out of the k becomes worthy and the other doesn't
    • God is pleased to grant the last throne to that 1, ends the age of the Gentiles, and no one from that point on until the end of time has the opportunity to reign with Him.
      • does anyone become worthy yet not have the opportunity to be rewarded as one who is worthy?
  • 2 of the k become worthy. there are two cases:
    • one becomes worthy a unit of time before the other
      • what happens to the other? he or she is worthy to sit on a throne but God doesn't have a throne for them anymore? treated like the unworthy for eternity because of a nanosecond's pace vs another person's?
    • both become worthy simultaneously
      • who gets the throne? what happens to the other worthy one? treated like the unworthy for all eternity because.. why?

so i'm wondering if you have any answers?
and what the implications about the person of God are, according to the answers?

thanks. :)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,887
6,488
113
U

UnderGrace

Guest
without reading it i'm going to guess he has a 'prescient' view of the foreknowledge of God . . ?
I wouldn't be surprised... not easy to read that gibberish.

But here is a snippet...

Christ has not done it all for us! It is the sword of the Lord and of Gideon. If Gideon does not do his part, neither will the Lord. We cannot enter our inheritance in our own strength and wisdom. But Christ will enable us to be more than a conqueror if we put on our armor and hold up the shield of faith. The Word of God is the sword of the Spirit, by far the most powerful weapon in the universe.
http://www.wor.org/book/3319/the-theology-of-robert-b-thompson#Not by Faith Alone
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,887
6,488
113
I am thinking he is not since this is a church he has in his Youtube videos

Mt Zion Fellowship in southern California.
Hi mentor was Robert B. Thompson (whoever that is).

http://www.wor.org/book/3319/the-theology-of-robert-b-thompson

Not good.

that's interesting

from that link:

The seeming discrepancy between _____________ and _____________ proceeds from seeking to interpret the Bible deductively—fastening on a few passages and ignoring the others. The Bible has to be interpreted inductively. The believer must accept every passage of Scripture as God’s Word. Any seeming contradictions must be understood as proceeding from our limited understanding of the whole counsel of God.
- R. B. Thompson ((blanks mine, because it has general application))
which is a great segue to another point i wanted to make:


Friends, there is much taught today which cannot stand the test of Scripture. May we not taken as truth all we hear preached for the pulpits, but let us be as the Bereans who -

"received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so." - Acts 17:11

one thing that is incredibly commonly taught but which does not stand the test of scripture is that Christ is not God.


There is a Father God, and His Son Jesus.
can i invite you to do some background reading - to search the scripture and see if this is true?
here is a thread, which has actually stayed more-or-less on-topic for its lifespan, wherein a great deal of the scripture on the subject is collected:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/christ-is-god.153694/

He is fully God and is never not God. He set aside His glory and took the form of a servant, becoming fully man. He speaks as God and as man, sometimes simultaneously, sometimes one or the other.

another thing a mathematician does is collect facts and lay them out, without presuppositions. then he looks for relationships in them and seeks to discern the truth from them, however puzzling it may be. that Christ is God is fact; scripture says so.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
He is fully God and is never not God. He set aside His glory and took the form of a servant, becoming fully man. He speaks as God and as man, sometimes simultaneously, sometimes one or the other.
Amen and Amen !!

Je suis tres fatigue........ of all his false teachings.

Thank you for the link

I hope he responds, typically he has a set script, so I doubt you will venture into any type of critical thinking with him....but you never know. ;)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,887
6,488
113
I wouldn't be surprised... not easy to read that gibberish.

But here is a snippet...



http://www.wor.org/book/3319/the-theology-of-robert-b-thompson#Not by Faith Alone


Christ has not done it all for us! It is the sword of the Lord and of Gideon.
ok! yeah!

If Gideon does not do his part, neither will the Lord. We cannot enter our inheritance in our own strength and wisdom.
wait, if Gideon's part isn't his own strength or wisdom, what is his part?

But Christ will enable us to be more than a conqueror if we put on our armor and hold up the shield of faith.
how do i put on my armor and hold up my shield without my own strength or wisdom?
i can't do it with my own strength or wisdom - like you just said .. ?
so Christ must put my armor on - and He must hold up my shield: that must be the enabling itself.
His wisdom and His strength '
made perfect in weakness'
The Word of God is the sword of the Spirit, by far the most powerful weapon in the universe.

So then it is not in him that willeth, nor in him that runneth, but in God that showeth mercy.



:)
 

limmuwd

Active member
Oct 12, 2019
177
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Kingdom of God
to-him-who-overcomes.com
You can be saved yet remain outside the kingdom and have no part with Christ in His inheritance?

:unsure:


How does that work?

Revelation 22:14-15
Blessed [are] those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside [are] dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Are you saying that there are saved souls outside with the lot described here? How do you call that "saved"?
So are agreeing with me that obedience to God's commandments are required! Very good. So many here claim they are "saved" without having to do anything other than "believe" mentally, without any repentance or obeying of the commandments of God given through Christ.

It is nice to know that others are hearing from the Spirit as well.

Blessings! :)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,887
6,488
113
@limmuwd here's a second point:

you said, God has a finite number of thrones in the kingdom, and that if a person isn't found worthy, God will offer it to the next person instead. now, you should know about me, i'm a mathematician. so the first thing that popped into my head when i heard you say this was a ball of questions such as 'how many?' and 'how many thrones would God make? how would He decide? guess how many of His creations would make themselves worthy?' and 'how good of an estimator is God?' and 'what if there are too many thrones, or too few?' plus about 900 other similar things that need answering.

the next thing was to explore the boundary conditions, because that's what mathematicians do, too. you had said in this context, that there are a finite number of thrones to be filled and this is the trigger for the age of the Gentiles to be completed. so imagine that God ordained N thrones and that N-1 of them have been filled. imagine there are k > 1 people who are 'vying' for this throne. in your paradigm, i take it, God is watching with great anticipation and interest hoping one of these k people will be found worthy to fill the last throne. i do not know the details of the function that you believe which takes an 'ordinary person' and turns it into a 'worthy to sit on throne' person, but say at least 2 of these k people are both 1 unit away from crossing the 'worthy line'
..God sits on edge of His seat and bites His holy fingernails..
now imagine what scenarios are possible:

  • at the last minute they both screw up. 0 of k become worthy
    • God extends the age of the Gentiles indefinitely with an empty throne
      • is it possible no one ever becomes worthy? empty throne forever, age of Gentiles forever?
        • why or why not?
      • consider the inverse problem - are there a finite number of people who will become worthy?
  • 1 out of the k becomes worthy and the other doesn't
    • God is pleased to grant the last throne to that 1, ends the age of the Gentiles, and no one from that point on until the end of time has the opportunity to reign with Him.
      • does anyone become worthy yet not have the opportunity to be rewarded as one who is worthy?
  • 2 of the k become worthy. there are two cases:
    • one becomes worthy a unit of time before the other
      • what happens to the other? he or she is worthy to sit on a throne but God doesn't have a throne for them anymore? treated like the unworthy for eternity because of a nanosecond's pace vs another person's?
    • both become worthy simultaneously
      • who gets the throne? what happens to the other worthy one? treated like the unworthy for all eternity because.. why?

so i'm wondering if you have any answers?
and what the implications about the person of God are, according to the answers?


thanks. :)
p.s. @limmuwd

we're fellow vets, and there are a number of others here at CC. i don't go to '
worthy forums' anymore either. but i left of my own accord ;)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,887
6,488
113
So are agreeing with me that obedience to God's commandments are required! Very good
yes - as the hymn goes, 'knees will be broken, for those who don't know how' and the other song, 'you're gonna bow, either way!'
what more impetus does someone who fears God need to willfully & dutifully kneel before Him in obeisance? :D
wisdom requires it - and Christ is for us, wisdom from God.



SSo many here claim they are "saved" without having to do anything other than "believe" mentally, without any repentance or obeying of the commandments of God given through Christ.
so is that, not actually saved? or saved, but not super-saved?
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
6,777
4,512
113
65
lawton ok

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,117
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113
I am thinking he is not since this is a church he has in his Youtube videos

Mt Zion Fellowship in southern California.
Hi mentor was Robert B. Thompson (whoever that is).
My first thoughts was Mormon then I leant towards JW.

RBT was an aligned to Joseph Smith Jr.
Therefore what we know as Mormon/LDS.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
6,777
4,512
113
65
lawton ok
1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but put the spirits to the test to see whether they are from God; for many false teachers have gone out into the world. World English Bible Beloved, don't believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. Young's Literal Translation
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,117
2,981
113
So are agreeing with me that obedience to God's commandments are required! Very good. So many here claim they are "saved" without having to do anything other than "believe" mentally, without any repentance or obeying of the commandments of God given through Christ.

It is nice to know that others are hearing from the Spirit as well.

Blessings! :)
The Holy Spirit?
Were the commandments given through Christ or given by Christ?

John 13:34-35
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,887
6,488
113
There are too many passages to list that say the Church is the Bride of Christ. So if you are a member of the Church, a part of the Body of Christ, you are the Bride.

I think the case can be made that the OT Saints will be in attendance, although they themselves are not the Bride.
the wife and the bride is a great mystery