Is unconditional election biblical?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Is unconditional election biblical?

  • Yes, unconditional election is biblical.

    Votes: 23 43.4%
  • No , unconditional election is not biblical.

    Votes: 27 50.9%
  • I don't know.

    Votes: 3 5.7%

  • Total voters
    53

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,809
25,987
113
So what your saying is that you have decided from scripture that free will doesn't exist? Correct?
You asked me to define self will, which I did.
Also. Is it true.
That belief in God is God's elected while unbelief is God's predestined unelected? Or that mankind is totally depraved and God chooses some to do good while others he predestined to be evil?
Jesus is drawing all to Himself. Will all respond? Apparently not.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
4,452
113
You asked me to define self will, which I did.
Jesus is drawing all to Himself. Will all respond? Apparently not.
Yes so I was assuming that if your definition came from scripture then equally your unbelief in free will was from scripture. Just trying to understand because it is one thing to deny free will and usually the alternative is God's absolute control. Self will was a new term so I was trying to understand either the human is free or not. Cannot be both.

Jesus is drawing all to Himself. Will all respond?


Very true. The choice to respond is mankind's responsibility.
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
So what your saying is that you have decided from scripture that free will doesn't exist? Correct?

Also. Is it true.
That belief in God is God's elected while unbelief is God's predestined unelected? Or that mankind is totally depraved and God chooses some to do good while others he predestined to be evil?
My friend, the Christ in John 8 so plainly stated this...32 “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” Man's will is not free but is enslaved to Satan, self, and sin. As the Christ later said...34" “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin." Here He is talking about the lost being slaves to sin. Later, Apostle Paul wrote..Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin. He has freed us from the slavery that Satan had us in. Even our wills were enslaved to him. Later in Romans 6 Paul wrote...17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. Even after being freed from sin, we are still slaves...slaves of Christ and His righteousness.
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
You can't do anything to obtain God's mercy, nor could you "do it God's way" which tells the tale: you think you did something to gain salvation.

You didn't. You couldn't.

So, I will present the Good News, not your #fakenews.

Here is God's way:

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. Romans 9:18.

God does this, not you, and the above shows his way of doing it. You have not one thing to do with determining it upon yourself.

But of course, believing you've met some conditions for God to choose you does away with any concept of Biblical truth in salvation whatsoever. As long as one believes that they were elected because they met the conditions to receive such grace, then it isn't even grace at all. Grace is unmerited favor, given in mercy.

Conditional election, a false gospel, your gospel, erases grace and makes salvation a reward for meeting conditions, thus salvation cannot be of grace any longer. That is exactly the definition of conditional election.

So, in other words, you and others have claimed God chose you because you did something. That's salvation by works, not salvation by grace. :)

To the contrary, Scripture teaches we are saved by grace, unmerited favor, and not because we met conditions, because in fact, while lost, we could never meet any of God's conditions, and because his only condition is him and his grace in the first place.

Yep. Salvation is all of him. You teach contrary, but even so, Soli Deo Gloria!!!

Rom 11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
Rom 11:3 "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE."
Rom 11:4 But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."
Rom 11:5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.
Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Rom 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
What? You mean you haven't heard that sound biblical saying, "God helps them that help themselves"?
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
4,452
113
My friend, the Christ in John 8 so plainly stated this...32 “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” Man's will is not free but is enslaved to Satan, self, and sin. As the Christ later said...34" “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin." Here He is talking about the lost being slaves to sin. Later, Apostle Paul wrote..Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin. He has freed us from the slavery that Satan had us in. Even our wills were enslaved to him. Later in Romans 6 Paul wrote...17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. Even after being freed from sin, we are still slaves...slaves of Christ and His righteousness.
My friend, the Christ in John 8 so plainly stated this...32 "If you continue in My word


Why say if you continue in my word? As if there is a choice?

A theological slave in context to sin doesn't mean you are absent of mental free will. It just means you cannot save yourself. This is what we call grace and salvation in Christ. [1] You are dead in sin [2]and we all are without excuse [3]. We all must choose how we respond to the Spirit. The Spirit first seeks us out and we must choose to believe [4] or deny the Spirit. [5][6]

[1] Ephesians 2:8 New International Version (NIV)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

[2] Ephesians 2:1-3 New International Version (NIV)
Made Alive in Christ
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

[3] Romans 1:20 New International Version (NIV)
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

[4] John 12:32 New International Version (NIV)
32 And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

[4] John 6:35 New International Version (NIV)
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

[5] James 4:4-5 New International Version (NIV)
4 You adulterous people,[a] don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think Scripture says without reason that he jealously longs for the spirit he has caused to dwell in us[b]?

[6] Joshua 24:15 New International Version (NIV)
15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
Why say if you continue in my word? As if there is a choice?

A theological slave in context to sin doesn't mean you are absent of mental free will. It just means you cannot save yourself. This is what we call grace and salvation in Christ. [1] You are dead in sin [2]and we all are without excuse [3]. We all must choose how we respond to the Spirit. The Spirit first seeks us out and we must choose to believe [4] or deny the Spirit. [5][6]

[1] Ephesians 2:8 New International Version (NIV)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

[2] Ephesians 2:1-3 New International Version (NIV)
Made Alive in Christ
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

[3] Romans 1:20 New International Version (NIV)
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

[4] John 12:32 New International Version (NIV)
32 And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

[4] John 6:35 New International Version (NIV)
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

[5] James 4:4-5 New International Version (NIV)
4 You adulterous people,[a] don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think Scripture says without reason that he jealously longs for the spirit he has caused to dwell in us[b]?

[6] Joshua 24:15 New International Version (NIV)
15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”
Remember, the Christ was confronted with many who walked with Him for a while, but later would walk away. This is how He separated the sheep from the goats parading around as sheep. In John 10 the Christ said 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” Earlier in this chapter He stated 14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd." That is what He meant by "if you continue in My word."

But man is not able to positively respond to the gospel UNLESS God first removes the blindness that has him blinded. Where and who does this blindness come from? in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.[2 Cor. 4:4] Unless God first comes in and does this, they can not truly see the gospel or even see this “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”[John 3:3] That is why God must first quicken them before they can positively respond to the gospel. You have them freeing themselves and coming to Him to be saved. We have God first freeing them to come unto Him. You have the effect before the cause. We have the cause and then the effect.
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
Why say if you continue in my word? As if there is a choice?

A theological slave in context to sin doesn't mean you are absent of mental free will. It just means you cannot save yourself. This is what we call grace and salvation in Christ. [1] You are dead in sin [2]and we all are without excuse [3]. We all must choose how we respond to the Spirit. The Spirit first seeks us out and we must choose to believe [4] or deny the Spirit. [5][6]

[1] Ephesians 2:8 New International Version (NIV)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

[2] Ephesians 2:1-3 New International Version (NIV)
Made Alive in Christ
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

[3] Romans 1:20 New International Version (NIV)
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

[4] John 12:32 New International Version (NIV)
32 And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

[4] John 6:35 New International Version (NIV)
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

[5] James 4:4-5 New International Version (NIV)
4 You adulterous people,[a] don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think Scripture says without reason that he jealously longs for the spirit he has caused to dwell in us[b]?

[6] Joshua 24:15 New International Version (NIV)
15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”
What you are saying is fallen mankind is free to come to the Christ to be freed or not. So, if they come to be to be freed, they are already freed. So, if they come to Him to be freed, and they are already freed, then the Christ wasted His breath saying "And the truth shall make you free." Freeing those who are already freed makes as much sense as a football bat.
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113


Why say if you continue in my word? As if there is a choice?

A theological slave in context to sin doesn't mean you are absent of mental free will. It just means you cannot save yourself. This is what we call grace and salvation in Christ. [1] You are dead in sin [2]and we all are without excuse [3]. We all must choose how we respond to the Spirit. The Spirit first seeks us out and we must choose to believe [4] or deny the Spirit. [5][6]

[1] Ephesians 2:8 New International Version (NIV)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

[2] Ephesians 2:1-3 New International Version (NIV)
Made Alive in Christ
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

[3] Romans 1:20 New International Version (NIV)
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

[4] John 12:32 New International Version (NIV)
32 And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

[4] John 6:35 New International Version (NIV)
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

[5] James 4:4-5 New International Version (NIV)
4 You adulterous people,[a] don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think Scripture says without reason that he jealously longs for the spirit he has caused to dwell in us[b]?

[6] Joshua 24:15 New International Version (NIV)
15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”
Choosing saves huh? Faith is a gift, Romans 12:3; 2 Peter 1:1; and is evidence of conversion, not the cause. God is the cause of our faith; Ephesians 1:19, and the cause of our salvation; 1 Peter 1:3.
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
Some need to change the words of the hymn "Jesus Saves" to "Choosing Saves."

🎵"We have come to him by choice, Choosing saves! Choosing Saves!"🎵
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
Choosing saves huh? Faith is a gift, Romans 12:3; 2 Peter 1:1; and is evidence of conversion, not the cause. God is the cause of our faith; Ephesians 1:19, and the cause of our salvation; 1 Peter 1:3.
Grace is the gift of God. Faith comes by hearing the word of God.

Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,600
3,528
113
He was using that analogy in how God elects ppl. That flies in the face of Deuteronomy 7: 7 "The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, 8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. There was nothing special in those that God chose from before the creation of the world[Ephesians 1:4] that was missing in those He justly left in their sins to stand before Him on the day of judgment. What Professor Flowers was stating was that 'choice' meat draws us to them because they are the choicest of meats. He then tries to fit that analogy into how God elected those who are saved. That is not how God did it. The elect were no more 'choice' than the non-elect. God elected His ppl based upon Himself, not ourselves.
Yep, and those chosen people died in the wilderness because of rebellion against God and did not enter the promised land.

He chose them to carry out the seed line.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
4,452
113
Remember, the Christ was confronted with many who walked with Him for a while, but later would walk away. This is how He separated the sheep from the goats parading around as sheep. In John 10 the Christ said 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” Earlier in this chapter He stated 14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd." That is what He meant by "if you continue in My word."

But man is not able to positively respond to the gospel UNLESS God first removes the blindness that has him blinded. Where and who does this blindness come from? in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.[2 Cor. 4:4] Unless God first comes in and does this, they can not truly see the gospel or even see this “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”[John 3:3] That is why God must first quicken them before they can positively respond to the gospel. You have them freeing themselves and coming to Him to be saved. We have God first freeing them to come unto Him. You have the effect before the cause. We have the cause and then the effect.
How does these verses negate free will? Without your commentary the verses themselves do not extinguish free will.

God does come first. You must of ignored my post speaking on how the Spirit draws ALL mankind and it is our responsibility to respond.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
4,452
113
What you are saying is fallen mankind is free to come to the Christ to be freed or not. So, if they come to be to be freed, they are already freed. So, if they come to Him to be freed, and they are already freed, then the Christ wasted His breath saying "And the truth shall make you free." Freeing those who are already freed makes as much sense as a football bat.
Fallen but not robots or puppets. Was Adam chosen? What caused him to sin?

Yes we are free in our choice between good and evil. How we respond the God's moral law and how we respond to God. Fallen but not totally depraved. Total depravity is a false doctrine.

Your ramblings are shortsighted with assumptions that you understand my beliefs.

So Jesus said and the truth shall set you free. Free from what? Condemnation of sin. Still doesn't negate the choice of belief.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
4,452
113
Choosing saves huh? Faith is a gift, Romans 12:3; 2 Peter 1:1; and is evidence of conversion, not the cause. God is the cause of our faith; Ephesians 1:19, and the cause of our salvation; 1 Peter 1:3.
In the original language you have two different words for faith. Faith as in gift or power from God or faith as in belief on the humans behalf. This is why many translations put belief and some put faith.

God is the cause as he draws all unto himself. But by no means does he force belief lol
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
2,026
1,512
113
What? You mean you haven't heard that sound biblical saying, "God helps them that help themselves"?
maybe i should just post a bunch of threads about man doing stuff here like you guys do with your calvinist "proof texts"

Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. (opposite of what calvinism teaches in romans 9 that vessel cant do anything, jeremiah 18 confirms what 2 tim 2:21 is saying)

2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Isa 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

hundreds of verses.

what was that english word bollocks. thats it. i heard it was invented to describe calvinism. yes its confirmed.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
4,452
113
Some need to change the words of the hymn "Jesus Saves" to "Choosing Saves."

🎵"We have come to him by choice, Choosing saves! Choosing Saves!"🎵
Choose Christ and you will be saved. Deny Christ and burn in Hell. Simple.

Did Lucifer have free will to rebel?

Does God have free will? Are we made in his image?
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
4,452
113
Grace is the gift of God. Faith comes by hearing the word of God.

Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
I agree but from past research you will also see that faith is part of the spiritual gifts. So any scripture that uses the word faith must be examined in context because there are different versions of faith.
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
Choosing saves huh? Faith is a gift, Romans 12:3; 2 Peter 1:1; and is evidence of conversion, not the cause. God is the cause of our faith; Ephesians 1:19, and the cause of our salvation; 1 Peter 1:3.
And this post got an indifferent emoji. He’s indifferent to God actually saving ppl w/o their need.