Is unconditional election biblical?

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Is unconditional election biblical?

  • Yes, unconditional election is biblical.

    Votes: 23 43.4%
  • No , unconditional election is not biblical.

    Votes: 27 50.9%
  • I don't know.

    Votes: 3 5.7%

  • Total voters
    53

Kolistus

Well-known member
Feb 3, 2020
538
276
63
I believe, since we live in a fallen, sin filled world, bad things naturally happen. Murder happens. Disease happens. Of course, God knows about it. He’s just not the one causing it. God knowing and God causing are not the same things.

This is why Paul states that we groan within ourselves waiting for the day of adoption, the redemption of our bodies and will no longer live in this world.
This is exactly the way I see this too, bad things happen to everyone saved or unsaved. Time and chance happens to all. Sometimes God does intervene, but you getting the flu is just you gettin the flu.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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I'm still reading over your other post, and I am going to try to look at some of your other threads if time permits. Here is one question that I have pertaining to the flood....Didn't God allow the rest a chance to be saved and get on the ark? I mean, Didn't Noah preach to them and try to get them to get on the ark? Seems to me that God gave them all a choice, but all of them, except for the 8 on board the ark, made the wrong choice and drowned. Yet, that was their choice, right.
Noah was a preacher of righteousness, yes....but does that mean he traveled around and evangelized? I doubt it. His main preaching was probably that he built the Ark in the first place. I think he probably warned them that disaster was coming, though.

I believe there is a general call and an effective call. God does witness to all of mankind, and they reject it. This is the general call. However, for the elect, who are chosen before the foundation of the world, they receive a calling which is effectual. It does produce results, because those are the ones God has chosen to redeem from all the earth. They would not, of their own resources, come to God because all fallen men desire to live a life of sin, but due to God giving them a heart of flesh (regeneration), they respond in faith and repentance. The rest do not, because they don't want to, and they don't have the spiritual equipment. They have hearts of stone.

By the way, fallen man does reject God willingly. They reject him willingly because they have a heart of stone. God gives the elect a heart of flesh, and they respond willingly due to the heart of flesh. They have a new nature that wants to please and obey God. This is also called being "born again".

The fundamental difference between Reformed theology and free-willer theology is that the Reformed person acknowledges that God is the cause of salvation. He changes the nature so that the person responds in faith and repentance. Free-willers claim that fallen man must respond in faith and repentance in order to receive a new nature. This is the fundamental issue between the two groups. One gives glory to their decision, while the other gives glory to God, who changes their nature so they can respond in faith and repentance. Free-willers claim that the fallen man already has the spiritual equipment to respond to God in faith and repentance, and Reformed theology teaches that he doesn't have the spiritual equipment to respond to God in faith and repentance.

So, what was the difference between Noah and the rest? Noah had been given grace by God, because he was one of God's elect.

Additionally, I would point out that eight is the number of new beginnings in Scripture..for example, an Israelite newborn was circumcised on the eighth day, and added to the covenant people as a "new creation". He was no longer "in Adam" but was part of the covenant people. And, eight people, in essence, became a "new creation" after sinful mankind was wiped out. The number could not have been different, and was typological of a new creation. Therefore, it did not catch God by surprise that only eight people were saved in the Flood.

How is that relevant? God predestined that only eight would be saved, because Noah was, in essence, a "new Adam" that was told to go forth and multiply and fill the earth like the original Adam. And, we know that the Ark could only hold so many animals and so many humans, because of limited space. We know no provision was made to save a large number of humans, as well. So, while Noah witnessed to them, the intention was not specifically salvific. God saves who he plans to saves, and not one more person.
 

Kolistus

Well-known member
Feb 3, 2020
538
276
63
Noah was a preacher of righteousness, yes....but does that mean he traveled around and evangelized? I doubt it. His main preaching was probably that he built the Ark in the first place. I think he probably warned them that disaster was coming, though.

I believe there is a general call and an effective call. God does witness to all of mankind, and they reject it. This is the general call. However, for the elect, who are chosen before the foundation of the world, they receive a calling which is effectual. It does produce results, because those are the ones God has chosen to redeem from all the earth. They would not, of their own resources, come to God because all fallen men desire to live a life of sin, but due to God giving them a heart of flesh (regeneration), they respond in faith and repentance. The rest do not, because they don't want to, and they don't have the spiritual equipment. They have hearts of stone.

By the way, fallen man does reject God willingly. They reject him willingly because they have a heart of stone. God gives the elect a heart of flesh, and they respond willingly due to the heart of flesh. They have a new nature that wants to please and obey God. This is also called being "born again".

The fundamental difference between Reformed theology and free-willer theology is that the Reformed person acknowledges that God is the cause of salvation. He changes the nature so that the person responds in faith and repentance. Free-willers claim that fallen man must respond in faith and repentance in order to receive a new nature. This is the fundamental issue between the two groups. One gives glory to their decision, while the other gives glory to God, who changes their nature so they can respond in faith and repentance. Free-willers claim that the fallen man already has the spiritual equipment to respond to God in faith and repentance, and Reformed theology teaches that he doesn't have the spiritual equipment to respond to God in faith and repentance.

So, what was the difference between Noah and the rest? Noah had been given grace by God, because he was one of God's elect.

Additionally, I would point out that eight is the number of new beginnings in Scripture..for example, an Israelite newborn was circumcised on the eighth day, and added to the covenant people as a "new creation". He was no longer "in Adam" but was part of the covenant people. And, eight people, in essence, became a "new creation" after sinful mankind was wiped out. The number could not have been different, and was typological of a new creation. Therefore, it did not catch God by surprise that only eight people were saved in the Flood.

How is that relevant? God predestined that only eight would be saved, because Noah was, in essence, a "new Adam" that was told to go forth and multiply and fill the earth like the original Adam. And, we know that the Ark could only hold so many animals and so many humans, because of limited space. We know no provision was made to save a large number of humans, as well. So, while Noah witnessed to them, the intention was not specifically salvific. God saves who he plans to saves, and not one more person.
What you call "general call" I would call "disingenuous call"
Its not really a call at all, since people are unable to do anything with the warning.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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Attached is a good article on misrepresentations of Reformed (Calvinist) theology that are commonly employed by free-willers.

It seems like Christians would be more conscientious about representing others' beliefs even if they disagree with them. But, unfortunately, I've found that some Christians are not conscientious in this regard and deliberately misrepresent the theology of their opponents in some cases. In other cases, it's a matter of ignorance and repeating the claims of other ignorant men. Dave Hunt would be an example of one such individual.
 

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UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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Here's a very handy chart of Scriptural proof texts to the doctrines of grace (TULIP) related to Reformed (Calvinist) doctrine. I don't agree with every single reference, but the majority are decent.
 

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