Is unconditional election biblical?

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Is unconditional election biblical?

  • Yes, unconditional election is biblical.

    Votes: 10 37.0%
  • No , unconditional election is not biblical.

    Votes: 14 51.9%
  • I don't know.

    Votes: 3 11.1%

  • Total voters
    27

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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#1
Unconditional election is the second doctrine of grace that I would like to cover.

I would like to say that the interaction on this forum concerning Reformed theology has, in fact, entrenched me even deeper, and incited me to do a quick review on the topic.

In fact, I think the doctrines are even more important now.

Why?

Predestination is a major teaching within Reformed theology. God doesn't simply provide his revelation about irrelevant teachings.

Why is predestination important?

1) it inspires praise. Realizing that God has chosen the elect since the foundation of the earth should cause believers to rejoice. We see Paul referring
to election as a reason for praise in Ephesians 1.
2) it inspires courage. Realizing that God is in control, and is not some weak, emasculated idol who is not in control inspires those who are in
covenant with him.
3) it humbles prideful, sinful man, who is forced to realize that God is the potter, and humans are the clay. That is one of the messages of Romans 9.
Man-centered theology makes me retch.

Anyways, the poll is simply, is unconditional election biblical? I will present several biblical texts to support my contention that it is.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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#2
REFORMED DOCTRINE OF UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION



ALIASES

Unmerited favor

Sovereign election





REFORMED CONVICTIONS ABOUT UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION

  • Adam sinned against God, and as the corporate head of all mankind caused the condemnation of all men.
  • God chose to extend grace (unmerited favor) to certain descendants of Adam before the foundation of the world.
  • He purposed to save only these individuals.
  • These individuals are saved to belong to Christ and are given by the Father to the Son.
  • His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part but was only based on his good pleasure and sovereign will.
  • God gives the individuals he has selected to save the gift of faith.
  • God gives new life to these individuals through joining them to Christ in faith.
  • God’s choice of the sinner is the ultimate cause of their salvation.
  • Sinners do not choose themselves, and God does not choose them ratifying their decision, as that would mean God doesn’t choose at all.
  • God passes over those who are not saved, leaving them to their own devices and sinfulness.
  • Election is a source of the believer’s strength, passion, praise and joy, and the teaching of election is in Scripture for this reason.
  • Election is unconditional; salvation is conditional upon repentance and faith. Election is not equivalent to salvation.
  • Faith and repentance are the effect of election. Regeneration of the elect causes faith and repentance, though.


FREE-WILLER RESPONSE

  • The free-willer response to unconditional election is conditional election.
  • God’s choice of certain individuals before the salvation of the world was based on foreseeing that they would respond to his call.
  • He selected only those he knew would freely accept the gospel.
  • Election is determined solely by what the man would decide in regards to salvation.
  • The faith God foresaw was not given to the sinner by God and was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit but resulted solely from man’s will.
  • It is entirely left up to man who would believe and therefore be elected for salvation.
  • The sinner’s choice is ultimately the cause of his salvation, and not God’s choice.
NOTE: I am using the phrase free-willer to describe the Arminian position, as well as the position of many others with similar theology, simply to accommodate their preference. Some prefer to be called free-willers rather than Arminians, and I understand because I do not like to be called a Calvinist. By condescending to using this term, though, I do not intend to imply that Reformed theology teaches that man doesn’t have free will. Man has free will, but not libertarian free will like their version of free will. Man’s free will is limited by his fallen or regenerate nature, and in that sense, is not libertarian free will. Man’s free will is always subject to his nature, and is subordinate to God’s sovereign will.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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#3
SUPPORTING SCRIPTURES FOR UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION

God has a chosen people, called “the elect”

Matthew 11:27 27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Matthew 22:14 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Matthew 24:22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Matthew 24:24 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.


Matthew 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Luke 18:7 7 And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night?

Romans 8:28-30 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Romans 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

Colossians 3:12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,

1 Thessalonians 5:9 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness,

1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:
May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

1 Peter 2:8-10 8 …They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Revelation 17:14 14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”
 

UnitedWithChrist

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#4
God chose individuals for salvation

Mark 13:20 0 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days

Ephesians 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

2 Timothy 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
 

UnitedWithChrist

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#5
This choice occurred before the foundation of the world, and thus is unrelated to personal merit or works of the elect

Revelation 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Revelation 17:8 And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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#6
Election precedes salvation

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,

2 Timothy 2:10 10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.


1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction
(ESV)

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:4 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

Romans 16:6-7 6 Greet Mary, who has worked hard for you. 7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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#7
The basis for election is not works or personal merit of the elect person, but is solely related to God’s purpose and grace

Romans 9:11-13 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Romans 9:15-16 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy

Romans 10:20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say,
“I have been found by those who did not seek me;
I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”

1 Corinthians 1:27-29 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.

2 Timothy 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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#8
Election brings about faith and good works, not vice versa

John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed

Acts 18:27 And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Philippians 1:29 29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,

Philippians 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 or we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ

James 2:5 Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?
 

UnitedWithChrist

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#9
The elect hear Jesus’ voice, and the non-elect will not hear Jesus’ voice

John 10:16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

John 10:4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.

John 10:25-27 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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#10
Faith and repentance are gifts of God to the elect, issuing from a regenerate heart

Acts 16:14 4 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

Ephesians 2:8-10 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
(ESV)

Philippians 1:29-30 29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, 30 engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.

Acts 11:18 And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.

2 Timothy 2:25-26 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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#11
Man’s salvation is an act of God’s sovereign, distinguishing mercy. It is not by man’s will, but is by God’s will, showing particular mercy and saving particular sinners

Exodus 33:19 And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The Lord.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.

Deuteronomy 7:6-7 6 “For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. 7 It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the Lord set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples,

Matthew 20:15 15 Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’

Romans 9:10-24 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Romans 11:4-6 4 But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

1 Kings 19:10 10 He said, “I have been very jealous for the Lord, the God of hosts. For the people of Israel have forsaken your covenant, thrown down your altars, and killed your prophets with the sword, and I, even I only, am left, and they seek my life, to take it away.”

1 Kings 19:18 18 Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”

Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will
 

UnitedWithChrist

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#12
God is sovereign over all things, and nothing comes to pass outside of his eternal purpose, including the salvation of those he has given to the Son

Job 42:1-2 1 Then Job answered the Lord and said: 2 “I know that you can do all things,
and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.


Psalms 115:3 Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.

Psalms 135:6 Whatever the Lord pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps.

Isaiah 14:24 24 The Lord of hosts has sworn: “As I have planned, so shall it be, and as I have purposed,
so shall it stand,

Isaiah 14:27 For the Lord of hosts has purposed, and who will annul it?
His hand is stretched out, and who will turn it back?

Isaiah 46:9-10 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me, 10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’

Isaiah 55:11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

Jeremiah 32:17 17 ‘Ah, Lord God! It is you who have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your outstretched arm! Nothing is too hard for you

Daniel 4:35 all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?”

Matthew 19:26 26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Jonah 2:9 9 But I with the voice of thanksgiving will sacrifice to you; what I have vowed I will pay.
Salvation belongs to the Lord!”


John 10:26-30 . 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”


John 6:35-40 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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#13
Concluding comments

  • Election does not mean that Jesus’ crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection is not necessary. The elect are chosen “in Christ”. Those who keep claiming that Reformed people are making the Cross necessary are simply displaying their ignorance, and don’t seem to understand what union with Christ implies. They also don’t understand that God ordains both means and the end.
  • Faith and repentance are gifts of God. Sometimes those who deny this will quote Romans 12:3, and claim that every man, including unbelievers, have faith. However, they ignore the fact that the context is a letter to the church. Of course, every Christian has faith because God has given it to all believers. In fact, the context involves various spiritual gifts within the Church. It is obvious that these individuals are using Scriptures taken out of context to support their views.
  • With regards to Romans 8:28-30, it is commonly asserted by freewillers that foreknowledge merely means that God looks down the corridor of time, and sees that particular individuals will respond to Christ, and elects these individuals. In other words, they believe that the elect person “chooses” himself by responding, and that is the basis for election. However, “knowing” in Scripture refers to an intimate relationship, for instance, a man’s sexual relationship with his wife. In the same way, God “knew” the elect person since the foundation of the world. See Jeremiah 1:5 for an example of this sort of foreknowledge. Notice that in Romans 8:29, the object of the foreknowing are persons, implied by the “who”, and not events. The real problem, though, is that this explanation is basically a denial that God chooses, and in reality, the claim is that man chooses, and election is not God’s sovereign choice.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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#14
Questions for critics

  • If you disagree with unconditional election, are you attempting to impose your human sense of fairness concerning salvation upon God, by rejecting unconditional election? Read Romans 9.
  • Are you robbing yourself, and others, of the praise that is brought about through a realization of the doctrine of election? Read Ephesians 1, and realize that election is not some peripheral doctrine, but is meant to bring about praise.
  • How much sense does decisional regeneration, the teaching of free-willers, make? Does it make sense that a person with a hard heart can repent and exhibit faith in order to receive a heart of flesh?
  • What is the fruit of the free-willers? Do you hear them praising God for their salvation on a regular basis? Are they fear-mongerers who are constantly trying to discourage other believers? Do they seem happy? Despite their claim that Reformed people are unhappy, I have experienced the opposite. Those who are insecure in their salvation tend to be unhappy people.

Rather than being embarrassed about the doctrine of election, I wholeheartedly accept it, and praise God for my salvation. I do not reason from a humanistic point of view concerning whether election is fair, because I know the fair thing is that all mankind is condemned to eternal punishment. If God elects many to salvation, but not all, I still praise him for it.

Is understanding election important? Yes. God doesn’t include unnecessary doctrines in the Bible that are meant to stir up disagreements. The doctrine of unconditional election is meant to humble sinful man, who continually likes to steal glory away from God for his sovereign grace. Additionally, it is meant to lead the elect into praise and worship (see Ephesians 1). Also, it is meant to give comfort and strength to the elect, related to God’s steadfast covenantal love evidenced in election.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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#15
Additional resources for study

I highly recommend the book Five Points of Calvinism: Defined, Defended and Documented by David N. Steele as a great introduction to Reformed theology.

Additionally, I recommend the “What is Reformed Theology?” sermon series by Brian Borgman on SermonAudio:

https://www.sermonaudio.com/search....=series&subsetitem=What+Is+Reformed+Theology?

I would also recommend this Gotquestions.org article on unconditional election:

https://www.gotquestions.org/unconditional-election.html

It covers some of the claims that will likely be brought up on this thread.

Finally, I caution against listening to the anti-Reformed individuals on this forum. I have experienced their vitriol on this topic, and regardless of their claims, they do, in fact misrepresent Reformed theology. For instance, some have claimed that Reformed theology teaches Jesus’ death on the Cross was not necessary. This is the most blatant form of misrepresentation I’ve heard from anyone on any topic. Additionally, I have been called, in essence, an idiot by one individual.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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#16
Regarding unconditional election, I wanted to mention that Reformed believers don't think that anyone who wants a relationship with God or Christ is denied a relationship.

The issue is this: no one outside of the elect sincerely desires a relationship with God. Therefore, there is no individual who is denied a relationship with God who wants one.

I remember a lady in a chat room claiming that her mother with Alzheimers was disturbed by our conversation regarding election or Reformed theology. Supposedly her mother started to doubt her own salvation.

Well, I don't know about the wisdom of allowing an elderly Alzheimer's patient to listen to discussions in a Christian chatroom, especially with some of the zany charismatic claims that were made on a regular basis.

The daughter was a deeply entrenched anti-Reformed person, though, and I suspect she was dramatizing the situation. At any rate, though, anyone who wants a relationship with God can have one. We just don't think there are any non-elect who want a relationship.

Unregenerate mankind hates God until he is drawn by the Father to the Son.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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#17
Sometimes this Scripture is brought up, with the claim that everyone will be drawn to Christ, and then they can make their decision:


John 12:32 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

This statement, made by Jesus following a request by Greeks to speak with him, may look like everyone is being drawn to Christ.

This statement cannot negate the fact that there are elect individuals who are drawn by the Father to Christ, and have already been given to the Son. Those elect individuals hear and respond to Jesus, and others do not. Read John 6, 10 in relation to this reality.

In Scripture, there are several remarks similar to this, where "all people" refers to Jew and Gentile. My position, which is reasonable, relates to the Jew-Gentile divide. Both Jew and non-Jew were going to be given the opportunity for salvation after the Cross. As Ephesians 2, Galatians 3 indicates, there was no longer going to be a separation between the two. Additionally, this same explanation would apply to God being no respecter of persons. There would be no separation between Jew and Gentile anymore.

However, the use of the "all" word doesn't mean that there is no elect.

The same type of explanation could be applied to John 3:16, where "the world" would include both Jew and Gentile.

All statements regarding a topic need to be reconciled, and this explanation is reasonable. As one reads the New Testament, the Jew/Gentile division becomes more and more evident. Prior to the Cross, this division was a reality; after the Cross, it no longer existed in God's economy.
 

Nehemiah6

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#18
I would like to say that the interaction on this forum concerning Reformed theology has, in fact, entrenched me even deeper...
That's the problem with false beliefs. People generally double down on them, rather than abandon them and admit they were on the wrong track. And posting reams of so-called *proof* does not change that.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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#19
That's the problem with false beliefs. People generally double down on them, rather than abandon them and admit they were on the wrong track. And posting reams of so-called *proof* does not change that.
There's not much profit in discussion with you, so don't be surprised if I don't respond to you.

Everyone can research the Scriptures I provided themselves. It's very obvious that God does elect, and the basis isn't "foreseen faith" like free-willers claim.

The main takeaway I'd like to impress upon folks is that predestination is taught in Scripture for a reason, and the reason is the encouragement of the people of God. While "free-willers" claim to be sensitive to the seeker, the reality is that most of them have little to offer the true believer. In fact, many of them deny eternal security, and strip the believer of this entitlement.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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#20
I havent read ALL the posts yet so I APOLOGIZE for possibly RUNNING AT THE MOUTH without taking all things you said into consideration. BUT I just want to say this, its on my heart:

As I have said a thousand times on here, but I will say it again since you're new on the block, MOST Christians I know, work with, live with, grew up with are pentecostals. Traditionally speaking you would say this is an ARMINIAN belief system, but the ones I know from those churches do BELIEVE in God-centered salvation they just dont know what to call it! They have agreed with me as I have gone through the verses with them and would say AMEN. No problems going through verses like, all them believed who were appointed to eternal life. ETC!