WHEN IS THE RAPTURE IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE GT?

Lol
You just made a case for the gt being a testing of israel

My deal is "concept vs concept" not personally with you.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

What is the point? to NOT BE Ignorant about the subject.

What IS the subject? Concerning them which are asleep (have died)

What are we to feel about those who have died?? Not to sorrow.

AND why should we not sorrow??? Not for the FACT that Jesus Christ died, (for the purpose of this discussion)

BUT for the FACT that Jesus ROSE.

WHICH means WE KNOW that when JESUS RETURNS, those who have died, are not dead in a hole in the ground, but with the Lord and they are coming BACK.

Have I missed the mark on those 2 verses? Is there a lack of understanding on my part here? Do you see something I need to have explained to me for me to understand why you keep bringing these verses up ??

Has there been a TIME established here that I have missed???


1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

IS THERE A "TIME" ESTABLISHED HERE???

The subject is "unto the coming of the Lord" and what the word of the Lord is telling us.

There will be those "alive" in the flesh when Jesus returns.
Those who are alive will NOT come to the Lord before those who have died, because they are with Him already.

because "to be absent from the body is to be with the LORD".
OR Put another way
Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first
Is there a "pre trib" or mid trib or anytime before the 2nd Advent established here?? ------------------------------------ OR does it seem like another verse referring to His 2nd Advent?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
IS THERE ANY "ASCENDING" mentioned here OR anywhere of "the Lord with the Church"?

1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Comfort each other about "Where the dead are".

Did it say somewhere that they would be the only ones on the earth when He returns?

Who are "Israel"??

According to the Abrahamic Covenant they are to number as stars, and dust. So you know they make up a vast majority of peoples, right?

They have been scattered over the whole world, to bring "whomsoever would" to God. So what do you think the chances of "Israel" being the Christians, or Church or body of Christ today? Many of them just calling themselves "gentiles"

Still not finding a pre trib rapture. Maybe a point in the right direction of your thinking.

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
As chapter 15 is written to those in heaven, this is written to those on earth. The Lords Day has commenced. We are all in the Millennium at this point
By the time His foot hits mount Sion, all will have been changed. He is descending as all flesh is changed. Along with the preaching of truth by the 2 witnesses who arrive right before the trib commences, the 144 are those who when hearing the Holy Spirit speak through Gods elect during their 10 day trial, are turned back to the truth.

Revelation 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
The 144 were turned back to the truth before they received the mark of the beast

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Revelation 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
And what will be happening during the Millennium?? THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL will be preached.

Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him for the hour of his judgment is come and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Satans tribulation has ended. The judgment on the beast and those who worship him. Worship will be going back to THE FATHER, Satan cast and banded in the pit for the 1000 yrs.

Revelation 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Satan has been put down in the pit. The antichrist and the beast are no more and never will be again.

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
one world system

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb
Judgment is come, not only to the city but to the peoples of the earth. Not the White Throne Judgment. What do you suppose that torment is? We have moved into a Spiritual realm and that IT IS IN THE HEART AND THE MIND that the pain takes place. It is the complete and total embarrassment from having been deceived, but they didn't put on the gospel armor, they did not withstand the fiery darts,they didn't think study to show themselves approved, they believed that Satan was Christ returned and they jumped into bed with him, now when the True Christ returns they ALREADY a child and give suck. They were taken in by deception. They wish for mountains to fall on them. They claimed to love God but that love that they should have had with all their heart and all their mind and all their strength, was just lip service. That they will be separated from Christ for another 1000 yrs. They have no linen, they are naked before God. Pure TORTURE to me

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
lake of fire. God is a consuming fire. AND WHAT ASCENDETH? THE SMOKE of their torment. BLOTTED OUT

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
HOW important is this verse?

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours and their works do follow them.
Rest is Sabbath and our Sabbath is Christ.

Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Revelation 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap for the time is come for thee to reap for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
PRAY you are not one of those who are harvested out of season. To be harvested at the wrong time is Bad.

Revelation 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth and the earth was reaped.
Revelation 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

Revelation 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth for her grapes are fully ripe.
Wanna know how telling this verse is? Go look up how grapes are harvested.

Revelation 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Revelation 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

God, who is longsuffering, is done with that for now.

Do you understand that NO SOULS DIE until the end of the Millennium at the Great White Throne Judgment, the lake of fire? Systems and offices are put down before, but no souls.

Do you understand there is a separating going on between the good and evil? Sheep and goats. No mark of the beast and mark of the beast? That there is a gulf, a valley, a river of pure water that can't be crossed?

The reference to Noah is how before the return of Christ there will be fallen angels (having been kicked out of heaven with Satan) on earth once again, taking and giving in marriage. There will be evil running amok drinking partying etc.

Neither Lot nor Noah left the earth so I don't understand why you bring them up.

Do you have anything new to back up this point. I mean it would be so much better if we both kept bringing in new verses. It gets so tiring to keep going over the same couple.

Yes.. But the only people that the Bible declares are in heaven before the return of Jesus are specifically Saints who had been killed because of their Faith in Jesus.. Not all Saints end up being killed for their faith.. Also on the day Jesus returns. He will be accompanied by many Angels..

Revelation 6: KJV
9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: {10} And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? {11} And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

So the ones dressed in white robes who will be returning with Jesus on the day of His second coming will be a specific group of Saints who where slain ( killed ) because of their Faith in Jesus and the Gospel truth.. Other Saints will be resurrected on the Day of the return of Jesus as shown in the scriptures in the Gospels like Matthew 24.


Yes a large number of people will die on earth from the effects of the wrath of God that will be poured out upon the earth as He avenges His Saints. But for the Elect's sake not all flesh will be destroyed.. These people will serve Jesus and the Saints during the 1000 years of the millennium that will follow the Day of the LORD. The Day of the return of Jesus..


Well of course most people on this planet never read the Bible.. Sadly most Christians never read the Bible.. So yeah i would say maybe less then 1% of people read the Word and seek understanding from the LORD on these things..

Have you ever thought about how "accessible" the Bible has become? Not only is the Word available in book, now through satellite tv and internet, access to any language along with preachers and teachers world wide. If you want to get to know God in this day and age, you are without excuse for lack of knowledge. Seek and ye shall find. Don't and you won't. I would say that that has been fulfilled.


Satan and his beast ( his Wicked one ) and false prophet will use Both the carrot and the stick method upon the people of the World.. He will use the Carrot upon those God will give over to deception and delusion.. But those of us who have our minds guarded by the indwelling of His Holy Spirit will not be deceived by satans deception, His lying wonders ( miracles ).

2 Thessalonians 2: KJV
8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: {9} Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, {10} And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. {11} And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: {12} That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

For me the reason they will be deceived is boiled down to the reason revealed in the 2 Thessalonians 2 passage i have quoted above::

The Love of the truth is the true Gospel way of salvation that is had by believing and trusting in the Atonement our LORD Jesus Christ secured by His death on the cross.. When people adopt a modified gospel based on the traditions of men and they embrace another Jesus ( like a Works salvation gospel / another jesus ) they will be given over to the deception of the beast and they will believe the beast is their messiah and they will go out and persecute and kill the true Saints of our LORD Jesus and they will think they do God service when they put true Saints to death..

John 16: KJV
1 "These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. {2} They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. {3} And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me. {4} But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you."

Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord

There is no specifics about "who", just a body that goes back to dust, and the spirit returning to God.

1 Corinthians 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not for some have not the knowledge of God I speak this to your shame.
1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die
1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain
1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1 Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1 Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption it is raised in incorruption
1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour it is raised in glory it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural and afterward that which is spiritual.
1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

And on the Lords Day we shall all be changed Doesn't say saints or the good ONLY it says not everyone dies but everyone is changed.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed


1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen
1 Corinthians 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1 Corinthians 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.


Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day
Luke 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luke 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom the rich man also died, and was buried
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue for I am tormented in this flame.
Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luke 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house
Luke 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets let them hear them.
Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


Ezekiel 47:5 Afterward he measured a thousand and it was a river that I could not pass over for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.

Who is under the altar? Who makes up the army returning with Christ?

Do you believe the actual gentiles can still be saved?

There has only been one sentenced to perdition by name and that is Satan, and even he wont die till the end of the millennium. There are the fallen angels who won't make it either.

But what is the Lords Day for? To preach the everlasting gospel.

I believe that those who were deceived, those who never cared, those who never were truly taught the truth, those who never heard, will all be able to overcome at the 2nd death. Satan and all his influence bound for the entire time (till loosed) nothing but GODS TRUTH taught, will bring, I hope all to Gods Way. Of course there are those who are just bad seeds and will follow Satan when he is loosed but good riddance to bad rubbish.

Our Father loves his children. Our God requires obediance. Our Lord God requires reverance. He can't change. He is just. He wishes for whomsoever would. Don't we all.

Isaiah 34:1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.

Isaiah 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
Isaiah 34:3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.


Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

And since we are in the Lords Day at that time Heaven is on earth with Christ.

Noah and Lot SAVED BY GOD right here on earth. Why? for an example for us who will be facing tribulation. To show us how we will overcome, by knowing the Plan of God. By having the key of David.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 Peter 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

2 Peter 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly
UnGodly - Gen 6 fallen angels intermixing with daughters of Adam - producing the giants. Just as it will be in the last days. Satan and the fallen angels kicked out of heaven. God DELIVERED NOAH HOW? By Noah being OBEDIENT TO GOD. God said "build" Noah built. God tells us to put on the gospel armor. Put it on.

2 Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

2 Peter 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked
Sodom and Gomorrha are the examples of what will happen be happening again.
And how was Lot saved?
Lot trusted God.
He was obedient. Obedience to the Word of God to the words of God.
2 Peter 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds)
Lot was vexed by all the evil he saw. He give into it, he stayed righteous.
2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished
God KNOWS how to deliver us, right from the place where we stand here on earth. Do you trust Him? Knowledge of Gods Plan makes anything you see Satan doing NOT TEMPTING AT ALL.

2 Peter 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

2 Peter 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

He was talking about Saints only.. When Jesus returns on the day of the LORD the Saints will be raised from the dead and we who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet Him in the sky..

In context the scriptures establish this::

1 Corinthians 15: KJV
50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, {52} In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. {53} For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. {54} So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. {55} O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? {56} The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. {57} But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

So the scriptures where talking about those who would be inheriting the Kingdom of God.. Not about everyone who has ever lived..

Just a few questions to see where we are at here. I don't know what you are saying and you may not be saying this at all, like I said I don't know, but if you are, I don't understand how you see the Lords Day playing out. Maybe you could explain.


Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Are you sure it isn't about "neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."?

Who is being spoken of here?
Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held
Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Aren't these souls asking to have their blood avenged "them that dwell on the earth"? How did they get to heaven and others missed it?




Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints which slept arose
Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Are you saying that since that day NO other saints have risen?
Would that mean that all the Apostles and Paul are in the ground?



1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit
1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison
1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1 Peter 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
Which spirits did Jesus go and preach to and what prison were they in? Or did He go to each individual grave?
Is there a "hell"?

What is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus about then?

What happens when Jesus returns to those who never accepted Him? Is flesh going to be "reanimated" what about those who "vaporized"? or were blown up? or cremated?

Will it be fair for those with "worse" infirmities of the flesh to be judged the same as those who remain totally "physically" healthy during the millennium?

I may have to many questions, if so sorry, but I will stop here. Talk to you soon I hope.

I believe in the pre-tribulational rapture. Jesus will come to get His Church (bride) before He pours His wrath on the earth. Anything else is just non-sensical.

I believe Jesus fulfills all the Biblical feasts, and the fall feasts are yet to be fulfilled.

I believe the next one is the feast of trumpets and this is the rapture. After this the day of atonement, for the nation of Israel as a whole. After this is the feast of tabernacles, the LORD amongst the people, everyone going to Jerusalem regularly to celebrate this feast.

Pre-tribulation rapture is also proven by the fact that Paul counted himself among those "we who are alive and remain" in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 which could only be true in a pre-tribulation setting. On top of this we have Jesus saying no man knows the day nor the hour, we have encouragement to watch to be ready for Jesus to return, all these verses to me indicate that Jesus could return today. Pre-tribulation rapture is also proven by the second coming itself, where heaven opens in Revelation 19 and Jesus rides with the Church to the earth, which wouldn't be possible in a post-trib scenario. These are already rewarded saints as we see in Rev 5 and 19, with linen and crowns on, so they have had to gone to the judgment seat of Christ already, which is another event the post-trib rapture does not leave any time for.

Another proof I have found for the pre-tribulation rapture is Revelation chapter 5, before the seals are opened there are people in heaven with crowns.

Here is a chart made by someone [credit to them!] on the feasts Jesus fulfilled and will fulfill, and in what order it goes:

Wow i feel as if i am grasping into thin air here, shadow boxing with a ghost.. You say::
"you may not be saying this at all" But at no time do you reveal what the this is that i may not be saying??? So how can i respond to that statement to either confirm i am saying this this or deny i am saying this this you have brought forward,,, without actually bringing it forward ??? This mysterious this that i have no idea about?

Then you continue with "" I said I don't know, but if you are "" If i are ??.... If i are what???

I don't understand how you see the Lords Day playing out. Maybe you could explain.

Click to expand...

A bit daunting for me to do a right up on all the events around the day of the return to Earth of the LORD Jesus Christ.. But i shall give it a go..

The Day of the LORD includes the wrath of God that will be poured out upon the followers of the Wicked One who is known by most as either the beast or the Anti-Christ.. This will happen after most Christians have been executed by followers of the Anti-christ for their refusal to worship the Image of the beast.. Some Christians however will still be alive on the actual day of the return of Jesus to earth and these will be caught up into the air by the Angels and will instantaneously be transformed into eternal perfected beings with perfect eternal bodies within which they will experience eternal life with Jesus from that moment onward.. As this is taking place the dead Saints will also be resurrected and will also be perfect beings in perfect bodies..

These will meet Jesus in the clouds and with Jesus they will come down to earth to rule the earth for 1000 years with Him.. As they come down the Army of the beast which will be amassed on the plains of meggedo will be caused to destroy itself, They will do this because the soilders will be made to go crazy and will turn upon each other. They will also be struck by a flesh liquefying plague which will see them dissolve.. ( if you have seen the movie raiders of the lost Arc when the nazies opened the Arc and.. Well if you ever watch the scene then you will understand )

From that time on the survivors of the nations which came up against Jerusalem will be subjects of Jesus and the Saints who will rule over them.. Also the 144,000 innocents of the 12 tribes of Israel who are also known as the remnant will be establish in an enlarged promised land .. from the rivers of Iraq to the river of the Nile and including all the arabian peninsular up to the areas of the mountains of turkey.. These 144,000 will be blessed with very long life but they will not be eternal like the Saints who will be living next to them and their descendants for the duration of the 1000 years..

I think i should stop here because i am probably missing things.. To include all details seems to be a daunting task.. I have given you something to chew on anyway..




Again struggling to understand why you have married these two separate verses? Matthew 10 is a call to fear God and his power far more then those on earth who would persecute and kill us? "neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" is talking about our dead flesh rotting in the graves and how rotten flesh cannot be caused to be incorruptable to inherit eternal life in Gods kingdom.. I can only speculate that you interpret the word corruption to mean taking bribes or some corrupt ( as in sinful behavor) because you are not being clear what you actually believe the corruption in the scripture means.. So again i feel like i am ghost boxing..

Who is being spoken of here?

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These are Saints who where executed because they where Christians.. Who stood up for the truth of the Gospel of Jesus.. These would include everyone from the first martyred Saint Stephen ( Acts 7:59 ) Saints who where killed by the Jews, Saints killed because of their faith by the Romans, Saints burned at the stake or tortured to death by the roman catholics because of their faith, Saints slaughtered by devout muslims as they wage jihad. Saints killed by pagans because they where sharing the Gospel.. And in the end Saints who will be beheaded because they refuse to worship the image of the beast..

Aren't these souls asking to have their blood avenged "them that dwell on the earth"?

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Yes..

How did they get to heaven and others missed it?

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They where killed / executed on earth during their flesh lives because they where Christians.. The others where not killed for being Christians.. If i die today from lets say a blood hemerage in my brain then i would be awaiting the day of the return of Jesus to be reasurected in a twinkling of an eye.. All those in heaven under the throne had one thing in common.. They where killed for their faith in Jesus.. as it says""

""should be killed as they were""

That naturaly excludes Christians who have died natural deaths.. Or deaths that have not come as a result of them being Christians..



Well there has been no recording of any Saints being raised from the dead since that day.. So these Saints must have been servants of God who where killed / executed because of their service to God.. Jesus even lamented about Jerusalem and the Jews::

Matthew 23: KJV
37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

Note there have been a lot more prophets then the named prophets in the Bible like Daniel, Isaiah and Jeremiah.. The Jews killed many prophets who God sent to them..



Sinners who had sinned and where in hell ( the soul prison ) but who had not yet heard the Gospel nor had they rejected the Gospel.. So people in hell since the days of Noah and the flood had a chance to hear the Gospel from Jesus and i believe they had the chance to accept the Gospel and be saved or reject the Gospel and remain in hell. So yes there is a Hell and i am not sure why you bring this topic up since i don't think it has anything to do with the topic of the thread Rapture timing in relation to the great tribulation. But i guess expanding topics are normal in these threads..

If only Paul hadn't written that 2nd letter, clearing up THAT EXACT SAME MISTAKE the people were making then.

But ok then, what TRUTH is GODS WORD sharing with us here?

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
(THAT BEING THE FIRST LETTER, THE VERY SAME ONE YOU ARE USING TODAY)

as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

Are these the words of Paul or are these Gods Word? Was the writing only to be taken for their present OR the present and THE future?

Please give me one verse where we are told of a 3rd Advent of Christ or a single reference that even alludes to one. We have multiple references to 2 Advents which NEVER EVEN suggest there will be ANY happening in between. So, if what you preach is truth, there must be multiple verses that cover JUST AS CLEARLY a 3rd, and negates all the references to there really only being just 2.
Please tell me where they are to be found. I am not asking for opinions or thoughts, JUST SCRIPTURE, clear and concise as God is on every other subject.

Doesn't it ever strike anyone as "strange" that it can't be done? It always requires "Mans Thoughts" to fill in "what he might have meant or thought" to arrive at that belief

No man knows the day or hour. No man still does. How does that set pre trib?

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel
Galatians 1:7 Which is not another but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

The only things that rapsure theory does is reconcile what you love and what you fear into a nice safe package.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Luke 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
Luke 17:23 And they shall say to you, See here or, see there go not after them, nor follow them.
Luke 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
Luke 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luke 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded
Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luke 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. (rapture theory does just this)
Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luke 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luke 17:36 Two men shall be in the field the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luke 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

For it to be like the days of Noah, WHEN THE SON of man is revealed (should have been written RE REVEALED?) Satan and his angels would have had to have been cast out of heaven.


1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

HOW ON EARTH CAN "AT THE LAST TRUMP" BE PRE TRIB??


Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Are you saying that there are no souls in heaven until the church is "raptured"?

If you continue on reading the 2 Thessalonians 2, its all made clear. These people were facing persecution and they thought "oh oh, the day of the Lord is here". Paul is saying dont be scared. Why would they be scared of that? Shouldn't they be happy the rapture is coming, the Lord is returning? It makes sense they were scared because they thought they missed the rapture and were in the tribulation period, which is why they were scared it was the day of the Lord. The Bible also says "Woe to those who wish to see the day of the Lord" in Amos 5:18. afaik.

I agree with the Luke verses about days of Lot, Lot was also removed pre-trib, pre-wrath, pre-judgment. Sooo... that kind of proves my point there dear

The last trump can be pre-trib easily because when Corinthians was written Revelation wasnt yet written, so the Corinthians wouldn't of guessed it was the seventh trump of the book of Revelation.

What I believe is the "Last trump" is posted in the chart that I posted. It is the Feast of trumpets, where the final trumpet is blown, the Lord calls us out by name and we are transformed, right before this the dead in Christ shall rise, and we will go to the judgment seat of Christ, and enter the wedding chamber.

There are souls in heaven before the church is raptured as you said, I am not denying that. But clearly these people in Revelation 5&19 are not just souls, but people in glorified bodies because they already have their rewards, white linen and most importantly: Crowns.

More evidence that these are saved people in glorified bodies can be found in Zechariah 14. When the Lord is returning notice that the saved Jews who are fleeing through the valley created by the mount of olives splitting as the Lord touches down on it are not transformed into glorified bodies. They arent raptured. Why is that? If the Rapture happens at the second coming, they should be transformed like all other believers, in a moment in a blink of an eye, but they are not.
The rapture already occured prior to this event of the second advent.

I am not trying to force you into believing in the pre-trib rapture, but I hope you do consider it with prayer, I believe the post-trib makes no sense. It has so many issues such as: who populates the millennium, why does Jesus beat up on His bride, how can imminent return be true if we can calculate precisely 3,5years from the abomination of desolation to the second coming, why would God punish the righteous with the wicked, when is there any time for the judgment seat of Christ, why arent the Jews raptured at the second coming if its the same event with the rapture and many more questions!

I believe in the pre-trib rapture of the church as well, however, there is one important difference. I believe that houses, churches, communities, schools, etc. are all going up along with our glorified bodies after we are changed. And each person will be changed in their time not necessarily at the same time.