WHEN IS THE RAPTURE IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE GT?

God chose Jacob over Esau before they were even born, before they had done anything good or bad. This is to show that God's selection process was not based on man's efforts or desires, but by God's Sovereign choice.

Salvation is not the context of chapter 9, but Israel’s election to carry out the seed line. God electing Jacob not Esau. It could only be one of those boys.

God elected His Son, Jesus, as the means of eternal salvation. If one wants to be part of God’s elect Son, then one must believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

There are elect angels, an elect nation, God’s elect, elect witnesses during the tribulation, etc..

Salvation is not the context of chapter 9, but Israel’s election to carry out the seed line. God electing Jacob not Esau. It could only be one of those boys.

God elected His Son, Jesus, as the means of eternal salvation. If one wants to be part of God’s elect Son, then one must believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

There are elect angels, an elect nation, God’s elect, elect witnesses during the tribulation, etc..

This is one of those topics akin to OSAS, or annihilationism, which are volatile topics . In a nut-shell, I believe that salvation is by God's sovereign choice, which He made before the world began. I will state the reasons why and in no particular order. First we have the following:

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

In many scriptures, there is, for a lack of a better words, the opposite result. For example:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Makes a body simply want to study only the words Jesus spoke,and disregard the epistles!

There is no rapture. No where in the bible does the word rapture appear. It is a man made word, inserted into Gods Word by man to think to save himself.

There will be no resurrected dead and no "changed" man until the Lords Day.

I'm sorry but you people are so confusing,there is no harmony in your beliefs!
One says, this here is the way it states,another says no it states this here.
I get this is discussion but it seems no one has the answer!
Makes a body simply want to study only the words Jesus spoke,and disregard the epistles!
Isn't the spiritual suppose to discern the spiritual?
How can the body,the church or the bride of Christ be so divided?

In my opposition to the Rapture Theory OR an "extra" return of Christ, which I believe is

"A theory of Jesus returning before Satan is cast to earth, where the dead would resurrect and "the church" would be taken to heaven, as the bride of Christ and would return with Jesus on the Lords Day."

It is not a doctrine of Christ. It is not spoken of by Christ. It is not alluded to by Christ. Christ NOT ONCE MENTIONS IT.

Paul absolutely rejects it and specifically teaches against it with these words

Now we beseech you, brethren,

by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

(if God had a pre trib "rapture" this would never have been written)

Let no man deceive you by any means for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

AND TO BE SURE PAUL follows with these words in reiteration

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of HIS coming

AND A THIRD TIME
Even HIM, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders


AND WHAT IS THE WARNING THAT COMES DIRECTLY AFTER?

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness

EVERYTHING ELSE IS SMOKE AND MIRRORS. IF YOU BELIEVE THAT CHRIST COMES AND GATHERS BEFORE SATAN FOR ANY REASON YOU ARE BEING DECEIVED AND ARE WILLINGLY ALLOWING YOURSELF TO BE.

No matter how it is presented, no matter how long you have been ensnared by it, no matter how long you have taught it, no matter how "truthful and holy" it SOUNDS AND FEELS FOR"RAPTURE" TO BE GODS TRUTH, THEN NONE OF WHAT IS STATED ABOVE COULD BE.

It is through a lack of knowledge and understanding or a lack of faith or just in sheep clothing that tells you
God can 'keep you from" without removing you completely out of.

The whole timing of and for "Rapture" before Satan is based upon these words of God, Yet IS SET BY man, NOT GOD

"saved from wrath through Him, For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, I will also keep you out of the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath, ECT." (how are we delivered from the wrath to come? By the saving blood of Christ, God isn't mad at those who love and obey Him)

NO WHERE do these words speak of "gathering" and being taken away. Then scripture about the 2nd advent is "misapplied" to this and if someone points any of this out, they are the ones with a lack of knowledge.

This "theory" also says it would be "the church" that is "gathered". But when you really "look" at what was said to "the church", the truth that is found is

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

He may be coming, but if he is it is to remove thy candlestick

Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive
Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried and ye shall have tribulation ten days be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

this part of the church isn't going for sure

Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

once again, He may be coming, but it is to fight against them

Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts and I will give unto every one of you according to your works

not the bed that "rapture" speaks to

Revelation 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments and they shall walk with me in white for they are worthy.
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

NOT BUT A FEW OF THEM are going to make it at all.

Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write THESE THINGS SAITH HE that is holy, HE that is true, HE that hath the key of David, HE that openeth, and no man shutteth and shutteth, and no man openeth
Revelation 3:8 I know thy works behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my

patience,
5281 hupomone
a remaining behind, a patient enduring,
endurance, steadfastness, patient waiting for

I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
(Because you have kept the word of the patient endurance of Me, I also you will keep out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the inhabited world whole, to try those dwelling upon the earth)

1537 from, from out of, suggesting from the interior outwards


Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Revelation 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


Another point that is brought up is "the church" will not be mentioned until the end. But if you read the messages to the churches, at the end of all the messages to them, it is stated "HE OR HIM that overcometh".

While Satan is here, the war is for your soul, not your flesh, it will be a one world order.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

I find it hard to believe that you would make a statement like that. Paul didn't see the book of Revelation so he didn't know what trump was what? And now the last trump and the 7 trumps are opposite? WOW. I would ask if you have any doctrine on that but I think it is best if I don't. My rightly dividing the word and yours are incompatible.

I don't make assumptions and then base the rest of what I learn on that assumption. You say "this means" and go on from there when that isn't what is written. It isn't a "fill in" whatever fits, disregard what doesn't type of book for me. God will judge, well, me anyhow. Apparently, you will just be skipping that whole death and judgment part, because some how, it doesn't apply.

You have assumed incorrectly that I do not do my own studies, then followed with another false statement, stating it like it is a fact. . You then follow that by "suggesting" I am not truly looking for truth. Please, don't do personal attacks from a position of no knowledge on me.

God has set out for us the way we are to behave in a situation such as this. So lets.

Why disregard the epistles? Jesus never says a word about what happens to those who are alive and remain... Not a word about being transformed in the blink of an eye.

Jesus never even mentions the millennium, if we are to go only by the Gospels, I believe it is wise to look at the whole counsel of God

So nobody believes or thinks like you?

I agree IT IS WISE,however I see divided application on here. I believe the WHOLE word of God as it is written. When I study I pray before, during and after that the Holy Spirit will direct my heart to all the truth written there! Not for debate nor argument but that my steps will be ordered by Him!

I'm sorry but you people are so confusing,there is no harmony in your beliefs!
One says, this here is the way it states,another says no it states this here.
I get this is discussion but it seems no one has the answer!
Makes a body simply want to study only the words Jesus spoke,and disregard the epistles!
Isn't the spiritual suppose to discern the spiritual?
How can the body,the church or the bride of Christ be so divided?

There is no rapture. No where in the bible does the word rapture appear. It is a man made word, inserted into Gods Word by man to think to save himself.

There will be no resurrected dead and no "changed" man until the Lords Day.