Was Adam Made Holy

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posthuman

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Interesting take. Do you have any evidence to support your claim?
Here is the traditional reason from the NET Bible notes...

"3:12 a tn The Hebrew construction in this sentence uses an independent nominative absolute (formerly known as a casus pendens). "The woman" is the independent nominative absolute; it is picked up by the formal subject, the pronoun "she" written with the verb ("she gave"). The point of the construction is to throw the emphasis on "the woman." But what makes this so striking is that a relative clause has been inserted to explain what is meant by the reference to the woman: "whom you gave me." Ultimately, the man is blaming God for giving him the woman who (from the man's viewpoint) caused him to sin. Genesis 3:12"
the fact that God accepts his answer and says "because you listened to your wife"

suppose you blame God for all your own sins -- how do you think that will go over?
what examples are there in scripture of people accusing God of being the one who tempts them to sin?
what narrative do they corroborate?
 

posthuman

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Not true. However, I've posted enough scripture. Choose to ignore Genesis in part or in full, that is the option of the saint reading.
post where God says 'cursed are you' to either Adam or Eve nee Woman, as you claim He said.
 

Whispered

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@Whispered

Deliver those who are drawn toward death,
And hold back those stumbling to the slaughter.
If you say, “Surely we did not know this,”
Does not He who weighs the hearts consider it?
He who keeps your soul, does He not know it?
And will He not render to each man according to his deeds?
(Proverbs 24:11-12)
does this have anything to do with whether a person has any kind of authority over another?
NOPE
so regardless of whether woman was made for man ((she was)) Adam would have been in sin if he is standing by dumb and unmoved while he watches Woman be deceived and transgress. Adam is not deceived. but God judges him for 'listening to his wife' and eating the fruit; God does not judge him for failing to prevent her by standing up for what he knows is right.


the weight of the testimony is that Adam is not present while Woman is being deceived, and the language of Genesis 3:6 is completely consistent with that. if you don't agree with what the Spirit wrote in 1 Corinthians 11, fine, but you're going to have to find something other than repeatedly quoting Genesis 3:6 to support your argument, because by itself, it does not make your case.
I have no idea to whom you are actually responding to as there is no quote. Just something addressed to me(?) that has nothing to do with anything I've posted, in accord or rebuttal, since there is no quote of mine to reference.
Please amend? Thank you in advance. This way I may respond properly.
 

posthuman

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Whispered

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posthuman

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dear girl, there are a lot more reasons to post something than merely to quote a specific bit of someone else's text and start an argument about it. there's so much idiotic bitterness in this forum sometimes, maybe you forget what actual discussion is like?

do you really have so little sense of the conversation you yourself are involved in??
or are you just still being petty? you're transparent.


you've been saying Adam was deceived - directly contradicting scripture.
you've been saying the Serpent didn't lie - directly contradicting scripture.
you've been saying woman was't made for man - directly contradicting scripture.
among other things.
in the midst of all that, you've been pushing the narrative that Adam was standing right next to Woman, as it were with his finger up his nose & a blank stare, while she becomes deceived, develops false premises about the tree, and sins, taking and eating it. and you think that by repeatedly quoting Genesis 3:6 in various translations it proves your point. i've been telling you, and showing you, that this doesn't prove your narrative at all, and that the weight of all the other things we know about these events and these people does not support your narrative.


i hope this post helps you get caught up with your own dialogue.
 

Whispered

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dear girl, there are a lot more reasons to post something than merely to quote a specific bit of someone else's text and start an argument about it. there's so much idiotic bitterness in this forum sometimes, maybe you forget what actual discussion is like?

do you really have so little sense of the conversation you yourself are involved in??
or are you just still being petty? you're transparent.


you've been saying Adam was deceived - directly contradicting scripture.
you've been saying the Serpent didn't lie - directly contradicting scripture.
you've been saying woman was't made for man - directly contradicting scripture.
among other things.
in the midst of all that, you've been pushing the narrative that Adam was standing right next to Woman, as it were with his finger up his nose & a blank stare, while she becomes deceived, develops false premises about the tree, and sins, taking and eating it. and you think that by repeatedly quoting Genesis 3:6 in various translations it proves your point. i've been telling you, and showing you, that this doesn't prove your narrative at all, and that the weight of all the other things we know about these events and these people does not support your narrative.


i hope this post helps you get caught up with your own dialogue.
Ah, the accuser appears yet again.
Transference of your behaviors onto me or others here is worthless. You bear false witness against me. You disagree with what I post, that doesn't mean I contradict scripture.

It is a lie from the pit that claims I said man was not made for woman.
Maybe rather than act as you do and then put your ways onto the one you target, you might grow in Christ and not bear false witness against those who are Christian. And laughing at people? That just shows you are very young. Which could explain the deplorable behavior.


Warnings Against Folly
1My son, if you have put up security for your neighbor,
if you have shaken hands in pledge for a stranger,
2 you have been trapped by what you said,
ensnared by the words of your mouth.
3 So do this, my son, to free yourself,
since you have fallen into your neighbor’s hands:
Go—to the point of exhaustion—[a]
and give your neighbor no rest!
4 Allow no sleep to your eyes,
no slumber to your eyelids.
5 Free yourself, like a gazelle from the hand of the hunter,
like a bird from the snare of the fowler.

6 Go to the ant, you sluggard;
consider its ways and be wise!
7 It has no commander,
no overseer or ruler,
8 yet it stores its provisions in summer
and gathers its food at harvest.

9 How long will you lie there, you sluggard?
When will you get up from your sleep?
10 A little sleep, a little slumber,
a little folding of the hands to rest—
11 and poverty will come on you like a thief
and scarcity like an armed man.

12 A troublemaker and a villain,
who goes about with a corrupt mouth,
13 who winks maliciously with his eye,
signals with his feet
and motions with his fingers,
14 who plots evil with deceit in his heart—
he always stirs up conflict.
15 Therefore disaster will overtake him in an instant;
he will suddenly be destroyed—without remedy.

16 There are six things the Lord hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19 a false witness who pours out lies
and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.


I will hold you and this forum in prayer.
Get ye behind me spirit of wicked worth.
 

posthuman

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You bear false witness
i said you've been saying Adam was deceived:

Adam was right there with Eve when the serpent persuaded her to eat. They were both deceived
i said you've been saying Satan didn't lie:

The Serpent didn't lie.
i said you've been saying the Woman wasn't made for the man:

One flesh. That means equal to one another.
Eve wasn't made from any part of Adam but that which is in his middle; the rib.
Even God saw that the man and woman were spiritually equal
Adam and Eve were one flesh, being "married".
you've been painting a picture of 'equality' by reason of marriage, as though marriage is not a union with one head.
that's feminism, not scripture. the Bible is pretty clear about the relationship of marriage, that the man is the head of the woman and this is a picture of Christ being the head of the man. Adam & Eve are a picture of Christ and the church; a relationship in which there are clear ordinate and subordinate roles, which roles are not contingent on the presence or the consequence of sin but have their basis in the very nature of God in contrast with the nature of man: Creator & created, That from which existence & purpose itself is derived and the thing which was brought into existence and purposed.


please have a look at this once again:

For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. For man is not from woman, but woman from man. Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.
(1 Corinthians 11:7-11)
notice that the argument is not 'because of sin' or 'because of the judgement'
the argument is because woman was made from man, not the other way around.
the argument is because woman was made for man, not the other way around.
the argument is because man is the glory of God, and woman is the glory of man.
the argument is made from facts present in Genesis 2, before the fall.
this isn't sexism; it's what the scripture plainly says.
 

posthuman

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this is important because Adam's response when God asks him if he has eaten is not blaming God for his own sin.
God accepts Adam's answer; God does not accept it when you tell God that God is responsible for your own evil actions.
Adam's response is interceding for his wife, saying, you gave her to me, and she ate. Adam is saying, i am to blame; have mercy on her. Adam says, she gave me and i ate: this is Adam confessing his sin, not ((as is commonly spread all over the churches)) Adam refusing to accept responsibility, trying to throw Woman under the bus and ultimately accuse God of responsibility.


Adam is a good husband in the sight of God. Adam is "the figure of Christ" ((Romans 5:14)). God accepts the confession of him and of Woman, covers them, and saves them.
I understand what you're saying here, posthuman, and I will ponder it ...

My understanding is that Adam did shift blame ... or at the very least rationalized when God asked him if he had eaten of the tree.

I believe this because when God asked Adam if he had eaten, Adam didn't just say "yes, I ate of the tree".

Instead, Adam said "the woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat".

While Adam didn't flat-out deny his eating, he did rationalize the behavior.

And I believe Adam ate in order to join his wife who he loved and I believe you and I are in agreement concerning this issue.

Just my 2¢. :)


 

PS

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Jan 11, 2013
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Where does it say that in scripture? Not by a readers inference, but by the words of God.
If Satan can enter and cause Jesus to flee, that would make God's adversary stronger than God.
It is the other way round. When Jesus enters in, Satan flees away.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Choose to ignore Genesis in part or in full, that is the option of the saint reading.
Just because someone disagrees with your interpretation does not mean they "choose to ignore Genesis in part or in full".

It could be that you "choose to ignore Genesis in part or in full".

Why not just indicate you are not in agreement, provide your understanding with Scripture support, and allow God to work in the heart to bring understanding. After all, that is how God works in our hearts. God does not tell you that you have to make me believe ... nor does God tell me I have to make you believe. When we think we have to make others believe, we overstep. Again, it is God Who brings increase in the heart of the believer ... we only plant / water (1 Cor 3:6-7).


 
Mar 28, 2016
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Where does it say that in scripture? Not by a readers inference, but by the words of God.
If Satan can enter and cause Jesus to flee, that would make God's adversary stronger than God.
Reminds me of the snake swallowing parable in Exodus with Moses and the Pharaoh. One eats the other.

Satan the counterfeiter disguises himself as a lion from the tribe of Judah, the tribe of Jesus. . . going about to seeking to devour flesh and blood but does not. . Rather get devoured himself by the true lion .

Genesis 49:8-10 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) Judah! thou -- thy brethren praise thee! Thy hand [is] on the neck of thine enemies, Sons of thy father bow themselves to thee. A lion's whelp [is] Judah, For prey, my son, thou hast gone up; He hath bent, he hath crouched as a lion, And as a lioness; who causeth him to arise? The sceptre turneth not aside from Judah, And a lawgiver from between his feet, Till his Seed come; And his [is] the obedience of peoples.


Galatians 5:15 and if one another ye do bite and devour, see -- that ye may not by one another be consumed


In Christ we do not wrestle against flesh and blood devouring one another.
 

Whispered

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Just because someone disagrees with your interpretation does not mean they "choose to ignore Genesis in part or in full".

It could be that you "choose to ignore Genesis in part or in full".

Why not just indicate you are not in agreement, provide your understanding with Scripture support, and allow God to work in the heart to bring understanding. After all, that is how God works in our hearts. God does not tell you that you have to make me believe ... nor does God tell me I have to make you believe. When we think we have to make others believe, we overstep. Again, it is God Who brings increase in the heart of the believer ... we only plant / water (1 Cor 3:6-7).
I think if you read my posts you'll see that I make it clear I am not in agreement.
In the matter of my words that you quoted above, I've gone back and forth with the person to whom they were addressed numerous times. The point of that matter is, they ignore what is written and interject their own belief. Making the scripture in either chapter, 2 or 3, written with a clear message, meaning to say what they believe should be there.

It goes anywhere from, Adam was not with Eve when she encountered the serpent to, Adam didn't cast blame on Eve for his eating of the forbidden tree, but.... , and so forth.

It is a rare thing that someone changes someone's mind about what scripture conveys. We can have disagreements, debate passages, that's fine.
However, belaboring a point or a short passage in scripture, while insisting what is written doesn't convey what appears in scripture , but is to instead say this.... and the member then enters a narrative of their own making, is not evidence of
either planting or watering, but rather is evidence of a contrary nature goading conflict.


The Book of 2nd Timothy chapter 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
 
Mar 23, 2016
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I think if you read my posts you'll see that I make it clear I am not in agreement.
Yes, you and I are not in agreement concerning what is written in Gen 3:1-5.




Whispered said:
The point of that matter is, they ignore what is written and interject their own belief. Making the scripture in either chapter, 2 or 3, written with a clear message, meaning to say what they believe should be there.
I have provided my understanding of Gen 3:1-5 (Post #315) and you have provided your understanding of the same verses and we are not in agreement.

You claim that I "choose to ignore Genesis in part or in full" or that I "ignore what is written and interject [my] own belief. Making the scripture in either chapter, 2 or 3, written with a clear message, meaning to say what [ I ] believe should be there" when what I have done is provide my understanding that Adam was not with Eve when satan deceived her.

That you do not agree does not mean I "choose to ignore Genesis in part or in full" as you claim in your Post #380 or that I ignore what is written and interject [my] own belief. Making the scripture in either chapter, 2 or 3, written with a clear message, meaning to say what [ I ] believe should be there" as you claim in your Post #395.

Rather than accuse others of ignoring Scripture or interjecting personal opinion, just state your disagreement, provide your Scripture reference to support your understanding, and move on if you cannot stop yourself from accusations which you have no basis to make.




Whispered said:
It is a rare thing that someone changes someone's mind about what scripture conveys. We can have disagreements, debate passages, that's fine.
However, belaboring a point or a short passage in scripture, while insisting what is written doesn't convey what appears in scripture , but is to instead say this.... and the member then enters a narrative of their own making, is not evidence of
either planting or watering, but rather is evidence of a contrary nature goading conflict.
Explaining to you why I believe Adam was not with Eve when satan deceived her is not me having entered "a narrative of [my] own making" and it is me "planting or watering". You just do not want to take the time to understand each verse as written in Gen 3 and instead focus on only one verse (verse 6) to support your assertion, while ignoring certain points made concerning vss 1-5 with which you do not agree..

And what is "evidence of a contrary nature goading conflict" is you accusing other believers of "choos[ing] to ignore Genesis in part or in full" or "ignor[ing] what is written and interject their own belief. Making the scripture in either chapter, 2 or 3, written with a clear message, meaning to say what they believe should be there".




Whispered said:
The Book of 2nd Timothy chapter 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.



 

Whispered

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Yes, you and I are not in agreement concerning what is written in Gen 3:1-5.





I have provided my understanding of Gen 3:1-5 (Post #315) and you have provided your understanding of the same verses and we are not in agreement.

You claim that I "choose to ignore Genesis in part or in full" or that I "ignore what is written and interject [my] own belief. Making the scripture in either chapter, 2 or 3, written with a clear message, meaning to say what [ I ] believe should be there" when what I have done is provide my understanding that Adam was not with Eve when satan deceived her.

That you do not agree does not mean I "choose to ignore Genesis in part or in full" as you claim in your Post #380 or that I ignore what is written and interject [my] own belief. Making the scripture in either chapter, 2 or 3, written with a clear message, meaning to say what [ I ] believe should be there" as you claim in your Post #395.

Rather than accuse others of ignoring Scripture or interjecting personal opinion, just state your disagreement, provide your Scripture reference to support your understanding, and move on if you cannot stop yourself from accusations which you have no basis to make.





Explaining to you why I believe Adam was not with Eve when satan deceived her is not me having entered "a narrative of [my] own making" and it is me "planting or watering". You just do not want to take the time to understand each verse as written in Gen 3 and instead focus on only one verse (verse 6) to support your assertion, while ignoring certain points made concerning vss 1-5 with which you do not agree..

And what is "evidence of a contrary nature goading conflict" is you accusing other believers of "choos[ing] to ignore Genesis in part or in full" or "ignor[ing] what is written and interject their own belief. Making the scripture in either chapter, 2 or 3, written with a clear message, meaning to say what they believe should be there".





2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Actually, it was my post #380 where I said to posthuman, not you, "Not true. However, I've posted enough scripture. Choose to ignore Genesis in part or in full, that is the option of the saint reading. "

And when you quote Genesis chapter 3 and say there is no evidence Adam was with Eve when the serpent spoke to her, the scripture can be said to not have any verse that says Eve went in search of Adam so as to offer him the fruit of the forbidden tree.
Rather verse 5, which precedes verse 6 where we read Adam ate and then gave unto Adam who was with her, does not mention Eve sought Adam because he was elsewhere than with her.
You're inferring Adam was not there when Eve spoke to the serpent, while dismissing the verse that tells us Adam was with Eve when she ate.
If the verse says Adam was with Eve when she ate, and there is no thing in the chapter 3 that tells us Eve sought out Adam, then it is a narrative approach in the scripture that alludes to placement of Adam in the whole of the chapter. And that is singularly in the preposition, 'with'.

This can also explain why in Romans we read that through man sin entered the world. If Adam was the head of the woman at that time in chapter 3 he was then charged with leading Eve to obey the command God gave unto him concerning the tree. That he did not, and was with Eve when she offered him to eat of the same fruit that she did, can be why we read it was Adam's decision to disobey God and eat that sin entered the world. Adam not only abdicated his responsibility to lead Eve in proper understanding and comportment to God's command, but he also partook of what he knew was forbidden because the prohibition was told to him first.
The Book of Romans chapter5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.

There is no version of the Bible that tells us in chapter 3 anything but what we read in the narrative of Eve being beguiled, eating, giving unto her husband who then did eat. There is no version that states, Eve had to seek out Adam and offer him to eat. The proximity factor of verse 6 in any version is key. If there was no proximity of Adam to Eve we would read Eve had to seek out Adam. But that is not in any version. We are to deduce from the scripture they were together.

Perhaps that is why the verse wherein God curses the couple and says, And I will put enmity between you and the woman... (excerpt of verse 15).
They were then divided from one another. Whereas before they were together.

What doesn't make any sense is the double standard that's entered this thread.

We read people make wide assumptions of what is in a scripture when there is no scripture to support it. As in this post.
Then we read a member(s) who say, when the scripture is in print as is before them, that what is there isn't what actually happened. Or what is said isn't what was meant in a particular passage.

I'm not going to belabor the point further. You may disagree with me as you wish, that's fine. I may disagree with you as I wish, that is fine too.

We are not going to be condemned by God for equivocating over a word, or words, in His Word.
 
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Actually, it was my post #380 where I said to posthuman, not you, "Not true. However, I've posted enough scripture. Choose to ignore Genesis in part or in full, that is the option of the saint reading. "
I understand you posted to posthuman, not me.

However, you qualified your "choose to ignore Genesis in part or in full" statement to posthuman by stating "that is the option of the saint reading"

According to you, any "saint" who disagrees with you is choosing "to ignore Genesis in part or in full".




Whispered said:
Rather verse 5, which precedes verse 6 where we read Adam ate
Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.




Whispered said:
You're inferring Adam was not there when Eve spoke to the serpent, while dismissing the verse that tells us Adam was with Eve when she ate.
Genesis 3:6 does not tell us Adam was with Eve when she ate. Genesis 3:6 tells us that Eve was with Adam when he ate.

There is no mention of Adam in Gen 3:1 when satan spoke to the woman;

There is no mention of Adam in Gen 3:2-3 when the woman responded to satan;

There is no mention of Adam in Gen 3:4 when satan spoke his lie to the woman;

There is no mention of Adam in Gen 3:5 when satan told the woman that God was withholding something from her.


Additionally, in Gen 3:17 when God pronounces judgment against Adam, He said Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife ...

God does not say "because you have hearkened unto the voice of satan". If Adam had been with Eve when satan spoke to her, Adam would have heard satan's inducement. But Adam did not "hearken" unto satan. Adam "hearkened" unto "the voice of" his wife.




Whispered said:
If the verse says Adam was with Eve when she ate, and there is no thing in the chapter 3 that tells us Eve sought out Adam, then it is a narrative approach in the scripture that alludes to placement of Adam in the whole of the chapter. And that is singularly in the preposition, 'with'.
The word "with" was added by the translators. It does not appear in the Hebrew.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat [Hebrew 'akal ] and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat [Hebrew 'akal ].


The words I highlighted in red are translated from one Hebrew word ['akal ], which means to eat.

The Hebrew word ['akal ] appears two times in verse 6.

The first time the word ['akal ] is used, it shows Eve eating of the tree after she saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise.

The second time the word ['akal ] is used, it shows Eve with Adam when he ate.




Whispered said:
This can also explain why in Romans we read that through man sin entered the world. If Adam was the head of the woman at that time in chapter 3 he was then charged with leading Eve to obey the command God gave unto him concerning the tree.
No one is responsible for making anyone else "obey the command God gave".

We are only responsible to preach the gospel. At the time of Adam and Eve, the only command was Gen 2:16-17 Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

We know from Gen 3:2-3 that Eve had some knowledge of God's command because she told satan We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

I have already explained to you how Eve changed God's Word. We do not know if what Eve repeated to satan was what Adam told Eve; or whether Adam told Eve what God told him and Eve changed God's Word. Scripture does not tell us and I will not presume to guess.




Adam not only abdicated his responsibility to lead Eve in proper understanding and comportment to God's command, but he also partook of what he knew was forbidden because the prohibition was told to him first.
We do not know that Adam "abdicated his responsibility". We know Adam told Eve something because of Eve's discussion with satan.

Adam "partook of what he knew was forbidden" in order to join his wife after she had eaten.

Adam is a type of Christ ... a foreshadow.




Whispered said:
We are to deduce from the scripture they were together.
They were only together at the end of verse 6 when Eve gave to Adam.

You want me to deduce from Scripture that Adam and Eve were together when satan approached Eve and yet satan spoke only to Eve ... completely ignoring Adam and Adam was (daydreaming about _____) while his wife was being deceived.
You want me to deduce from Scripture that Adam and Eve were together when Eve changed God's Word from what was spoken in Gen 2:16-17 to what Eve said in Gen 3:2-3 and Adam stood by mutely, never correcting her, or saying one word.
You want me to deduce from Scripture that Adam and Eve were together when satan spoke his lie "thou shalt not surely die" and Adam said nothing.
You want me to deduce from Scripture that Adam stood by and watched Eve eat of the fruit and did nothing to stop her.

That is what you want me to deduce from Scripture.


I want you to deduce from Scripture that Adam was not with Eve ... that satan approached Eve when she was by herself and vulnerable. This is how satan operates and we have other Scripture to show this is satan's m.o. (Matt 4:1-11).

I want you to deduce from Scripture that Adam was not with Eve when she ate and, therefore, was unable to stop her from eating.

I want you to deduce from Scripture that Eve was with Adam and gave him to eat and he ate. And Adam ate, not because he did not know it was wrong to eat. Adam ate because his wife had eaten. Adam joined Eve in her fallen state rather than have her be alone in her fallen state. (Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh - Gen 2:24). Adam left his Father ... cleaved to his wife ... and became one flesh with her. :(




Whispered said:
Perhaps that is why the verse wherein God curses the couple and says, And I will put enmity between you and the woman...
God did not "curse the couple". That was God's judgment on satan:

Genesis 3:

14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.




Whispered said:
What doesn't make any sense is the double standard that's entered this thread.

We read people make wide assumptions of what is in a scripture when there is no scripture to support it. As in this post.
Then we read a member(s) who say, when the scripture is in print as is before them, that what is there isn't what actually happened. Or what is said isn't what was meant in a particular passage.
How about in your Post #597 when you stated Gen 3:5 states Adam ate of the tree?

or in same post when you stated God "curses the couple and says, And I will put enmity between you and the woman..." when God actually cursed satan and said He would put enmity between satan and the woman?

Please stop with your accusations. Your accusations do nothing to promote good dialog.





Whispered said:
You may disagree with me as you wish, that's fine. I may disagree with you as I wish, that is fine too.

We are not going to be condemned by God for equivocating over a word, or words, in His Word.
In agreement.




 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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I understand what you're saying here, posthuman, and I will ponder it ...

My understanding is that Adam did shift blame ... or at the very least rationalized when God asked him if he had eaten of the tree.

I believe this because when God asked Adam if he had eaten, Adam didn't just say "yes, I ate of the tree".

Instead, Adam said "the woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat".

While Adam didn't flat-out deny his eating, he did rationalize the behavior.

And I believe Adam ate in order to join his wife who he loved and I believe you and I are in agreement concerning this issue.

Just my 2¢. :)
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God:
for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth He any man
(James 1:13)
God asks of him two questions:
  • who told you you were naked?
  • did you eat of the tree?
does Adam answer God's questions? yes -
  • who told you you were naked?
    • the Woman
  • did you eat of the tree which I had commanded you not to eat?
    • i did eat
Adam adds two pieces of information that aren't directly answers
  • You gave the Woman with me
  • she gave fruit to me
this brings up questions. why did he say this? it's not an answer to either question.
this is the popular teaching in the church:

  • Adam is blaming the Woman
  • Adam is blaming God
  • Adam is denying responsibility
this is tantamount to three accusations against God:
  • You gave me an evil gift of a wife
  • You tempted me to sin by proxy
  • You are wrong to judge me
popular sermonizing then proceeds to berate the congregation, saying, you should never say these things to God. why? because God will not accept such backtalk. the preacher will then go on to berate & warn the congregation about how the things he says Adam replied to God are wicked & unacceptable, and how God will condemn them.
but what actually happened? God accepts Adam's answer. God curses the ground - not Adam - and tells Adam that He is doing so for Adam's sake. God covers Adam - a clear symbol of redemption and atonement and prevents him from going to the tree of life. Adam is not rebuked for what he says to God - tho James tells us very plainly that the common interpretation of his testimony to God is wicked - and God does three things for Adam's good: He makes atonement, He curses the ground, and He keeps him from eternal death.
are the things God does for Adam good? of course. are these the things God does to those who accuse Him of evil? no, they aren't.


objectively, the popular preaching on this cannot possibly be correct. either God does accept it when you call Him the author of evil and temptation & blame others for your own sin, or Adam did not do these things.

so we have these facts to deal with: why does Adam bring up that Woman was God's gift to Adam and that Woman gave Adam some of the fruit?
one thing stands out very plainly: Adam is directing attention to Woman, and God next speaks to her.
is Adam just saying, '
don't look at me, talk to the Woman' ?
well, Woman also directs attention to the Serpent. is she saying '
don't look at me, talk to Satan' ?
does God ask the Serpent to explain himself? no, He doesn't. so we don't have a pattern of shift blame, talk to the one blamed. we have something else.


what i'm telling you is that God is the Great Physician, and He comes by. Adam & his wife are sick, ashamed and afraid. when God calls, Adam answers. Adam explains his symptoms to the Great Physician, truthfully and factually answers His questions and directs His attention to his wife. Adam's not deceived. he knows he is poisoned and he knows who God is. he says, help my wife.

i ain't 'ignoring Genesis' lol -- i'm looking for Christ in it, and Adam is 'the figure of Him'
i know this: the right understanding of these events is the one that testifies of our Saviour, & in this, Adam is the type of Him.
what does Jesus do? He takes on the likeness of sinful flesh, for our sake, bearing our burden. in Him there is no lie. He makes intercession for us before the Father.
so what explanation is there for Adam's replies to God that explains all the data ? accusing God of tempting him just don't fit.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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this is the popular teaching in the church:
  • Adam is blaming the Woman
  • Adam is blaming God
  • Adam is denying responsibility
this is tantamount to three accusations against God:
  • You gave me an evil gift of a wife
  • You tempted me to sin by proxy
  • You are wrong to judge me
In the parable the man who receives 1 minah and buries it says to God, you are an evil judge. he says to God, this that you gave me was not a blessing but a trap to ensnare me.
does that wicked and slothful servant take responsibility for his sin? and does the Master accept his answer?