What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

In the video the incredible heresies of the church fathers is spotlighted.

Honestly, I don't understand your point. Certain words are used in certain passages, but not in others. You want to know how what part of that jives with what part?

What are you talking about?

Prove it

This is another one of those vague posts of yours without specific scriptures to prove a specific point.

Show me the passage you think the angels gathering the elect would contradict if it were about the rapture. Paul says the dead in Christ shall rise first and shall be caught up together with him to meet the Lord in the air. There is nothing in there that would contradict the idea that angels might be involved in the rising or catching up of the saints. Maybe we won't have the power of flight without angelic help. It's okay if we don't.

Circular reasoning is generally not a good thing. And riding on the highway of circular reasoning isn't a compliment. Pre-tribbers will read pre-trib into passages that do not have any evidence for it and are convinced the passages teach it because they assert how the verses are supposed to fit into pre-trib.

There is a big gaping hole in your theory. That is the fact that God is God, and He is able to pour out wrath on the earth, or have angels do it, without being angry at the saints on the earth. If God has the ability to do that, your argument falls flat.

You should also consider other eschatalogical theories that fit better than pre-trib. We have someone arguing for a pre-wrath type view here who thinks various judgments will fall after we have been caught up to meet the Lord in the air before He completes His descent.

Either of these approaches make more sense than inventing a second parousia. Look up how parousia was used. If an official, like an emperor or ambassador were making an official visit or coming to stay in a city, his coming there would be a parousia. It might be accompanied by some kind of procession. It is also used of the physical presence of a person. How is the pretrib interpretation of the I Thessalonians 4 parousia that accompanies the rapture a parousia at all? If Christ only appears in the sky and then immediately returns to heaven with the saints (the u-turn problem) then, how is he present on the earth? How is that His official arrival?

Yeah you got a unique view that deserves a look at it FOR SURE. You got a pastor or someone I could check for more DETAILS? OR i can just google historicism! I see it was sometihng MOST reformers agreed on, VERY INTERESTING.

Because the meeting is "in the air," and "so shall we ever be with [G4862 - UNION-with/IDENTIFIED-with] the Lord"... At that occasion (our Rapture), His "presence" is only "in the presence" of "the Church which is His body" who has been "caught UP/AWAY" "UNTO HIM" (there--not on the earth). You yourself said (in the bold ^ ), "it is also used of the physical presence of a person," and so it is, here in this instance (when *we* go to meet Him IN THE AIR--no one else is present with Him there [in His "presence"], but us … [same goes for the ones in Numbers 10:4 ONLY ])

The only thing I have to show you is some study material on my web site. You are more than welcome to look at that. Go to mywebsite.us and look for the 'Study' link in the menu to the left. If you are really feeling adventuristic, check out the Bible Search feature/utility and tell me what you think of it.

I agree that it is not past history.

That is because Daniel 9:24-27 is written in SEQUENTIAL ORDER.


Daniel 9 -

23 At the beginning of your petitions, an answer went out, and I have come to tell you, for you are highly precious. So consider the message and understand the vision:

24 Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city to stop their transgression, to put an end to sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

25 Know and understand this: From the issuance of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until the Messiah, the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of distress.

26 Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing.

Then the people of the prince who is to come [/"THAT SHALL COME" ... this would be superfluous wording, *if* this is speaking of the SAME one as in v.25! It's not!] will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations have been decreed.

27 And he [the one from v.26 ("the prince THAT SHALL COME")] will confirm a covenant with many [the many?] for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation, until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.”



[note: the "he/he/he" ("he/he/him" in this version) of v.27 IS the "who/who/who" ("whose/who/whom") of 2Th2:3-9a! (BOTH passages showing the "BEGINNING, MIDDLE, *and* END" of him!--the entire 7-yr period in BOTH passages! [BOTH: Dan9:27(26) AND 2Th2:3-9a])]

I like it. The view that you hold seems to be that its PROGRESSIVELY fulfilling, like Matthew 24:15 can be fulfilled in AD70 but Matthew 24:31 can be fulfilled in AD2020.

I encourage everyone to check out the man's website, got charts, WHAT DO YALL GOT TO LOSE?

Hello Melach,

The understanding comes from reading the context of both the Lord's appearing to catch up His church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. The error has been developed by people making these two as being the same event. As I've said man times, the major problem comes from lack of complete study of all related scriptures, which leads to these erroneous beliefs and teachings.

There is going to be a seven year period of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments (Revelation chapters 6 thru 18), which are going to take place figuratively as a woman having birth pains. These pains will get closer together and more intense as they go. The underlying principle, is that Jesus already took upon Himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer in Christ, because it has already been satisfied. When we believed, we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God, i.e. brought back into a right relationship with Him. That being the truth, I don't understand why people still believe that God is going to leave His church to endure the same wrath as the wicked. Those who say that God is going to protect the church during that time have no idea of the severity of those plagues of wrath which is going to come upon the whole world.

I wish people would stop calling it "two comings" because they're not! When Jesus comes for His church, He will be calling us up to meet Him in the air. He will not be physically returning to the earth at that time. It is specifically the event to catch up the church. Then combined with John 14:1-3, He will be taking the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He said He was going to prepare for us, according to His promise.

The second coming is when Jesus visually and physically returns to the earth to engage the beast, the kings and the nations at Armageddon, where at which time the Lord will kill all of the wicked, have the beast and the false prophet captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire and Satan thrown into and restricted in the Abyss. When this takes place, the church and the angels will be with the Lord as He descends. The church as the bride, will have received her fine linen and will be following the Lord on white horses.

I also continue to point out to all of these people, that the church, as the bride, is seen in Rev.19:6-8 at the wedding of the Lamb, which takes place in heaven, receiving her fine linen. Then in Rev.19:14, it shows the bride wearing that fine linen that she previously received and following the Lord out of heaven. What's my point? You can't follow the Lord out of heaven unless you're already in heaven. In further support of this, we have Rev.17:14 which is a reference to when the descends:

"They (beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

Those "called, chosen and faithful followers" is the church who will have previously been caught up and taken to the Father's house in heaven. Again, it demonstrates that the church/bride would already have to be in heaven in order to follow the Lord out of heaven.

Stop thinking of them, not as two returns, but two different events. One representing the Lord's appearing to gather the church and the other when the Lord actually returns to the earth to end the age. Two different events.

Everything with God is a legal process. That said, since Jesus has already satisfied God's wrath on behalf of every believer, then we must be removed from the earth prior to the on-set of God's wrath. It is a legal process. Those who believe and teach that the church is going to be on the earth during the time of His wrath don't really understand nor believe that. This is why it says that we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath (Rom.5:9, I Thess.1:10, 5:9). And the reason that "we cant even agree on the basic fundamentals," is because of the following:

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths." - (2 Tim.4:3-4)

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves."

What a slap in the face to Jesus by those who ignore the wrath that He received on our behalf, by believing and teaching that the church is still going to go through His wrath, as though what He did meant nothing. And that is what they are doing by their belief. They say that God is going to protect the church during the time of His wrath, yet, Rev.13:5-7 reveals that the beast is going be given authority over the saints, making war with them and conquering them. So where is God's protection that they are speaking of from both God's plagues of wrath and the beasts reign? Their error is that they don't understand the difference between the Lord's appearing to gather the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age as two separate events, nor do they understand the difference between the church and the great tribulation saints, as being two different groups.



Those great men did believe and teach two separate events. It is because of lack of understanding and the false teachings of men that they falsely interpret the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth, as being the same event. It is their misinterpretation of scripture that causes them come to their erroneous interpretation and not those great men of God. Matt.24:29-31 is not the same event as I Thess.4:13-17

I Thessalonians 4:13-17 = Christ's appearing to gather the church and take us back to the Father's house

The gathering here is when the church is caught up to meet the Lord in the air

Matthew 24:30-31 = Jesus physical return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom

The gathering here is when the angels go throughout the earth and gather the great tribulation saints who will have made it alive through the entire tribulation period. These, along with the remnant of Israel are those who will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom.

Two different events!

That's quite a stretch, especially if you read passages like II Thessalonians 1 where Jesus comes and gives the church rest and executes vengence on them that believe not.

The real question is, why would pre-trib be in the consideration set at all? What scripture teaches that there will be two 'parousias'? Why does scripture treat it like one event? Why is there no passage that lays out a sequence with a pretrib rapture? Why would Jesus tell His disciples 'in such an hour that ye think not, the Son of Man cometh' if all of His disciples will be raptured up before the coming He spoke of?

Did you see the small chart called 'Chronological Order' below the main chart on the 'Olivet Discourse' page?

Again, 1:7 says, "ye who are troubled rest/repose with us IN THE REVELATION of the Lord Jesus from heaven, with His mighty angels, taking VENGEANCE on... " (did you see my recent post on the concept of His "vengeance"??)

It doesn't say, "will receive rest when" nor "will give rest when" but "rest/repose with us IN THE REVELATION of"

Let me put it like this, and see if you can grasp "why" the VAST MAJORITY of "prophecies" throughout Scripture have not been spelled out in nice, neat, fully-developed and "date-stamped" paragraphs of fullest explicit-ness!!! but instead are like a smattering of snippets here and there, a phrase placed side by side with another phrase of something else that takes place thousands of years apart from the other thing, and the like.

If the Lord spelled it out, point blank, "the Rapture will take place ON __/__/__ [insert specific calendar date]," then that would totally defeat the purpose of what He will be "putting into play" following our Rapture[/Departure] which is spelled out in 2Th2:10-12 (that is, IN the "dark/darkness" / "IN THE NIGHT" aspect of the entire long "DOTL" time period, meaning, IN/DURING the trib years [the yrs that "the man of sin" will be in operation]), which passage says,

"10 and in every deception of wickedness unto those perishing, in return for which they did not receive the love of the truth in order for them to be saved. 11 And because of this, God will send to them a working of delusion, for them to believe what is false, 12 in order that all those not having believed the truth but having delighted in unrighteousness should be judged." [this passage is referring to a DURATION of this, not a split-second "judgment" at His "RETURN"]

If it were written even more explicitly than even the OT prophecies were written (which those in Acts 3, Peter was saying had OVERLOOKED/BYPASSED "the Suffering Servant" aspects of the OT prophecies [eyeing only the "Conquering King" aspects alone], THUS themselves having a hand in fulfilling those very aspects [His rejection and crucifixion/Suffering Servant aspects]), then HOW would you propose "the working of DELUSION" would come to fruition (unfold and play out), seeing as things would be "spelled out explicitly in DIRECT WORDING with straightforward calendar-dates [__/__/__]" according to how you would like for it to be said in order for it to meet your expectations (for it to be true); Instead, He has the Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 event (when the angels will "REAP") to be in the EXACT OPPOSITE SEQUENCE as that of "our Rapture" event (for it is at a distinct time-slot), for HIS purposes (to the end that is shown in vv.10-12, above). Make sense??

It can be clear TO US (His Spirit-indwelt believers), if we aren't insistent that that one particular word CANNOT mean THAT, and that that other phrase is defined like the "made up definition" says it means (instead of how SCRIPTURE ITSELF defines it), and we don't blur two distinct items together into one item (verses 1 and 2), and don't inject certain other things, and so forth...


I've mentioned in past posts... the Olivet Discourse makes use of a "consistent 'you'," and the "proleptic 'you'" meaning (basically), "all those in the future OF THE SAME CATEGORY"

... and those He was speaking to in [up to, and INCLUDING] the Olivet Discourse were "those to whom the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom WAS PROMISED" (and that was, TO ISRAEL... and the "GUESTS" whom THEY will "INVITE" [i.e. the Gentiles/nations who will be existing in the trib yrs with them (FOLLOWING "our Rapture"/"THE Departure")--Let's not usurp Israel of THEIR role, and THEIR rewards, and the place God has FOR THEM, at that [specific, future, limited] time-period, which is AFTER "our Rapture"/"THE Departure"]). It's not "all about us".

[I'll try to go find that other post I'm talking about, that speaks of His "VENGEANCE" (its timing)]

^ EDIT to add the link to the post I'd made about His "VENGEANCE" (timing of) [in relation to what is said in 2Th1:7 ^ per the above post]:

Post #823 - https://christianchat.com/threads/when-is-the-rapture-in-relationship-to-the-gt.187927/post-4106466

[see also Post #824]

One more thing... in addition to the "proleptic 'you'" I mentioned, there's also the fact that all "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come/etc" passages refer to His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [NOT our Rapture]; and there will be those who WILL be coming to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" who will indeed be "saints" ['disciples' of Jesus] who will be the ones who will ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies to populate the MK age (the "children/grandchildren" BORN to them [IN/DURING the MK age] will not be "born automatically righteous," of course). So it is these "saints" to whom this "proleptic 'you'" pertains (not to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [all those saved "in this present age [singular]"], to/of whom the Rapture SOLELY pertains, instead). It is a matter of "when" one/a person comes to faith (i.e. timing / chronology issues--you and I are NOT "OT saints," for example [to whom "Rapture" was NOT promised])

1st you claim we are raptured off the earth because we are not appointed to wrath.

Revelation 19:14-15 (KJV)
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Then you claim we are brought back to earth just as Gods wrath begins. Darbys rapture is simply a bunch of baloney

The reason I do not believe Matthew 24:15 could have been fulfilled in the 70ad events, is because of the CHRONOLOGY issues I've pointed out in the past.

Matthew 24:4-8 EQUALS Mark 13:5-8 EQUALS Luke 21:8-11 ["the beginning of birth pangs" (in all three passages)--these are the SAME THINGS (identical, and at SAME TIME-SLOT)]...

where (then) v.12 (Lk21) goes on to say, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE things [i.e. BEFORE ALL of "the beginning of birth pangs JUST LISTED (vv.8-11)]," the 70ad events must take place FIRST [BEFORE them!] (vv.12-24a/70ad events; with 24b following on and unfolding from there).


Consequently, Matthew 24's "SEE-then-FLEE" [v.15] must be distinct from Luke 21's "SEE-then-FLEE" [v.20] DUE TO this very important "CHRONOLOGY" thing! This puts Matthew 24's "SEE-then-FLEE" AFTER "the beginning of birth pangs" [and is the reason for the "THEREFORE" in your v.15]; whereas in Luke 21 the "SEE-then-FLEE" PRECEDES "the beginning of birth pangs" (and I do not suggest, "immediately precedes," just to be clear )

Nope
Does not fit.

The 144k are firstfruits...firstfruit fruit,not wheat/barley.
They are followed by "ripe fruit"
It is depicted intricately and in detail as a JEWISH event/harvest.

Too much there to change it to the gentile bride.

Can not possibly fit.

Test fit pretrib. It fits Like a glove.
For some reason you resist even a test fit