Faith: Who exercises it?
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Are faith and belief the same thing?
How do we separate faith and trust. Are they conflated? or are they symbiotic and inseparable for the purpose of a discussion?
Answering those questions would help me to answer the OP as I was just pondering this on a walk.
The Lord is responsible for the gift of faith, I think that is scriptural.
I also think that he ordains certain things for us, and thinking about the parent/child relationship...it is a growing process, and necessarily a good bit of things will be done for us with little knowledge. A child going on a walk probably isn't thinking about the exercise element, that it is healthy all around, they are just following their parent. I actually consider this different from where children typically start. That is playground recreation, or playing outside. Going for a walk took me a bit of time to learn to enjoy (hiking etc.), but playgrounds are rarely thrilling beyond a solid 30 mins of exercise (or when monitoring children). I'd prefer them learn to walk, and see that there are spots along this walk that you can play on, but that is not the main event. Some hikes may be a challenge and you may need tools or a helping hand. Just the way I'm thinking about it at present, because of my recent dog walk.
We are also stewards of it to an extent, things that weaken our faith are to be avoided and we are held to account for such things.
Persecution tries our faith, does it refine or not? My answer is that it "can". It shows us where we are and where we need to dig in.
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of...? So then can we presume that it is by the word of the Lord (both written and revealed) that faith is exercised?
Not to get into semantics, but exercised could mean working out (as in refinement thereof) and also "used" (such as exercising one's power in a situation). Not that it is your own power, but his, you are still a vessel with choices to make. Even if the choice is clear, how exactly it is implemented is usually a little more vague.
So I would say that "hiding the word in one's heart" is like a work out/exercising nurturing of faith and situationally as well as persecutory is more like exercising it's power. Depending on the situation and persecution the Lord can either explicitly manifest one's faith in action, or implicitly (more background).
I also feel that it is encouragement to us in a way, when we are persecuted/attacked...you can sort of see indirectly your own growth or another's by the response to the situation. At least for me, it is indicative of maturation because I sometimes feel like I'm stagnating and situations prove otherwise, which is encouraging and sometimes surprising. Something like smelling the fruit you are producing, that analogy needs a bit of work but I'm uncertain past just being aware of yield at some point. I don't think we partake of the fruit we produce directly as yet.
I've been pondering it a bit and considering starting a thread. Some of that may have been a bit off the topic, but regarding faith, it can all be connected.
How do we separate faith and trust. Are they conflated? or are they symbiotic and inseparable for the purpose of a discussion?
Answering those questions would help me to answer the OP as I was just pondering this on a walk.
The Lord is responsible for the gift of faith, I think that is scriptural.
I also think that he ordains certain things for us, and thinking about the parent/child relationship...it is a growing process, and necessarily a good bit of things will be done for us with little knowledge. A child going on a walk probably isn't thinking about the exercise element, that it is healthy all around, they are just following their parent. I actually consider this different from where children typically start. That is playground recreation, or playing outside. Going for a walk took me a bit of time to learn to enjoy (hiking etc.), but playgrounds are rarely thrilling beyond a solid 30 mins of exercise (or when monitoring children). I'd prefer them learn to walk, and see that there are spots along this walk that you can play on, but that is not the main event. Some hikes may be a challenge and you may need tools or a helping hand. Just the way I'm thinking about it at present, because of my recent dog walk.
We are also stewards of it to an extent, things that weaken our faith are to be avoided and we are held to account for such things.
Persecution tries our faith, does it refine or not? My answer is that it "can". It shows us where we are and where we need to dig in.
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of...? So then can we presume that it is by the word of the Lord (both written and revealed) that faith is exercised?
Not to get into semantics, but exercised could mean working out (as in refinement thereof) and also "used" (such as exercising one's power in a situation). Not that it is your own power, but his, you are still a vessel with choices to make. Even if the choice is clear, how exactly it is implemented is usually a little more vague.
So I would say that "hiding the word in one's heart" is like a work out/exercising nurturing of faith and situationally as well as persecutory is more like exercising it's power. Depending on the situation and persecution the Lord can either explicitly manifest one's faith in action, or implicitly (more background).
I also feel that it is encouragement to us in a way, when we are persecuted/attacked...you can sort of see indirectly your own growth or another's by the response to the situation. At least for me, it is indicative of maturation because I sometimes feel like I'm stagnating and situations prove otherwise, which is encouraging and sometimes surprising. Something like smelling the fruit you are producing, that analogy needs a bit of work but I'm uncertain past just being aware of yield at some point. I don't think we partake of the fruit we produce directly as yet.
I've been pondering it a bit and considering starting a thread. Some of that may have been a bit off the topic, but regarding faith, it can all be connected.
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Hello Chris, as far as saving faith goes, I believe that it is something that God gives to those of us who are/will be His children .. e.g. Ephesians 2:8, and that we exercise that gift when we choose to believe.
We continue to exercise faith as we are sanctified by God/grow in Christlikeness throughout this life (as we grow in hope, assurance and trust in God and in His great promises to us) .. e.g. Romans 4:20-21, 8:28; Philippians 1:6, 2:12-13.
As far as "God's" faith goes, well, there is this Biblical definition of faith to consider.
God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, declaring the end from the beginning, as well ordaining whatsoever comes to pass before it happens.
So, while there is no question that God is "faithful" (and that we can have faith/trust in Him because He is), I do not believe that He can operate on the basis of "faith, hope, trust, assurance, etc." like we do, can he
Thanks!
HAPPY NEW YEAR
~Deut
p.s. - demons believe .. e.g. James 2:19, as do many humans who are not/never will be saved .. e.g. Matthew 7:22-23. Shall we talk about them too, as well that there are different "kinds" of faith?
We know that God causes all things to work together
for good to those who love God, to those who
are the called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28
..
We continue to exercise faith as we are sanctified by God/grow in Christlikeness throughout this life (as we grow in hope, assurance and trust in God and in His great promises to us) .. e.g. Romans 4:20-21, 8:28; Philippians 1:6, 2:12-13.
As far as "God's" faith goes, well, there is this Biblical definition of faith to consider.
Hebrews 11
1 Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, declaring the end from the beginning, as well ordaining whatsoever comes to pass before it happens.
So, while there is no question that God is "faithful" (and that we can have faith/trust in Him because He is), I do not believe that He can operate on the basis of "faith, hope, trust, assurance, etc." like we do, can he
Thanks!
HAPPY NEW YEAR
~Deut
p.s. - demons believe .. e.g. James 2:19, as do many humans who are not/never will be saved .. e.g. Matthew 7:22-23. Shall we talk about them too, as well that there are different "kinds" of faith?
We know that God causes all things to work together
for good to those who love God, to those who
are the called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28
.
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Hi Mii, those are some interesting terms to understand, contrast and consider Perhaps we should define the various terms for the benefit of the discussion? @Chris1975?
Do we need to look at the Greek (or Hebrew and Greek) to do so, since these terms are so closely related?
Thanks!
~Deut
Perhaps we should define the various terms for the benefit of the discussion? @Chris1975? Do we need to look at the Greek (or Hebrew and Greek) to do so, since these terms are so closely related?
Thanks!
~Deut
Hi Mii, those are some interesting terms to understand, contrast and consider Perhaps we should define the various terms for the benefit of the discussion? @Chris1975?
Do we need to look at the Greek (or Hebrew and Greek) to do so, since these terms are so closely related?
Thanks!
~Deut
Perhaps we should define the various terms for the benefit of the discussion? @Chris1975? Do we need to look at the Greek (or Hebrew and Greek) to do so, since these terms are so closely related?
Thanks!
~Deut
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I
Came across the beauty of the Amplified Bible translation of 1 Peter 1v3-9.
There is so much that is said and so much beauty in these verses. I will copy them here for all to appreciate. Read them slowly and meditate on what the Holy Spirit is showing you.
1 Peter 1v3-9
3 Blessed [gratefully praised and adored] be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant and boundless mercy has caused us to be born again [that is, to be reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose] to an ever-living hope and confident assurance through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 [born anew] into an inheritance which is imperishable [beyond the reach of change] and undefiled and unfading, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are being protected and shielded by the power of God through your faith for salvation that is ready to be revealed [for you] in the last time. 6 In this you rejoice greatly, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7 so that the genuineness of your faith, which is much more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested and purified by fire, may be found to result in [your] praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 8 Though you have not seen Him, you love Him; and though you do not even see Him now, you believe and trust in Him and you greatly rejoice and delight with inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 receiving as the result [the outcome, the consummation] of your faith, the salvation of [a]your souls.
There is so much that is said and so much beauty in these verses. I will copy them here for all to appreciate. Read them slowly and meditate on what the Holy Spirit is showing you.
1 Peter 1v3-9
3 Blessed [gratefully praised and adored] be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant and boundless mercy has caused us to be born again [that is, to be reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose] to an ever-living hope and confident assurance through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 [born anew] into an inheritance which is imperishable [beyond the reach of change] and undefiled and unfading, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are being protected and shielded by the power of God through your faith for salvation that is ready to be revealed [for you] in the last time. 6 In this you rejoice greatly, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7 so that the genuineness of your faith, which is much more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested and purified by fire, may be found to result in [your] praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 8 Though you have not seen Him, you love Him; and though you do not even see Him now, you believe and trust in Him and you greatly rejoice and delight with inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 receiving as the result [the outcome, the consummation] of your faith, the salvation of [a]your souls.
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Please forgive the volume of this post. Skip to the bottom for the summary if you like.
The issue, as I see it (which is perhaps different than what the OP was thinking), is an apparent contradiction between the phrases, "faith of Christ" and "faith in Christ". The KJV uses "faith of Christ" or close variants in several places, and at least one KJV-only advocate argues that it is Christ's faith that justifies us, according to Galatians 2:16.
Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? (NASB: faithfulness)
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (NASB: faith in)
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (NASB: faith in for both)
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (NASB: faith in)
Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. (NASB: faith in)
Ephesians 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. (NASB: faith in)
Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: (NASB: faith in)
James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. (NASB: your faith in)
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (NASB: their faith in)
However, it also talks about the faith of people:
Romans 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. (NASB: the faith of)
Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (NASB: the faith of)
2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. (NASB: the faith of)
Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; (NASB: the faith of)
Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. (NASB: the faith of).
Other than in cases using the singular-specific "thy", there is no disagreement between NASB and KJV in the 35 places that Scripture uses the phrase, "your faith", meaning the faith of people. Not a single one attributes the locus of faith to Christ or God, though He is the object of faith in every case.
Returning to the verses where the NASB differs from the KJV, not a single one has a textual variant. That means that the difference is entirely one of interpretation; how the KJV translators used "of" and how it is used today. Because the locus of faith is always in the believer(s) where they are being addressed directly, it is reasonable to conclude that the locus of faith is also in the believer in the "faith of" verses. In other words, "faith of" is a 16th century way of saying "faith in". It isn't the faith "located in Jesus" that justifies us, according to Galatians 2:16, but the faith located in us. God/Christ is the object of faith, not the "exerciser" of it.
The issue, as I see it (which is perhaps different than what the OP was thinking), is an apparent contradiction between the phrases, "faith of Christ" and "faith in Christ". The KJV uses "faith of Christ" or close variants in several places, and at least one KJV-only advocate argues that it is Christ's faith that justifies us, according to Galatians 2:16.
Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? (NASB: faithfulness)
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (NASB: faith in)
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (NASB: faith in for both)
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (NASB: faith in)
Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. (NASB: faith in)
Ephesians 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. (NASB: faith in)
Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: (NASB: faith in)
James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. (NASB: your faith in)
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (NASB: their faith in)
However, it also talks about the faith of people:
Romans 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. (NASB: the faith of)
Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (NASB: the faith of)
2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. (NASB: the faith of)
Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; (NASB: the faith of)
Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. (NASB: the faith of).
Other than in cases using the singular-specific "thy", there is no disagreement between NASB and KJV in the 35 places that Scripture uses the phrase, "your faith", meaning the faith of people. Not a single one attributes the locus of faith to Christ or God, though He is the object of faith in every case.
Returning to the verses where the NASB differs from the KJV, not a single one has a textual variant. That means that the difference is entirely one of interpretation; how the KJV translators used "of" and how it is used today. Because the locus of faith is always in the believer(s) where they are being addressed directly, it is reasonable to conclude that the locus of faith is also in the believer in the "faith of" verses. In other words, "faith of" is a 16th century way of saying "faith in". It isn't the faith "located in Jesus" that justifies us, according to Galatians 2:16, but the faith located in us. God/Christ is the object of faith, not the "exerciser" of it.
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Please forgive the volume of this post. Skip to the bottom for the summary if you like.
The issue, as I see it (which is perhaps different than what the OP was thinking), is an apparent contradiction between the phrases, "faith of Christ" and "faith in Christ". The KJV uses "faith of Christ" or close variants in several places, and at least one KJV-only advocate argues that it is Christ's faith that justifies us, according to Galatians 2:16.
Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? (NASB: faithfulness)
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (NASB: faith in)
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (NASB: faith in for both)
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (NASB: faith in)
Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. (NASB: faith in)
Ephesians 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. (NASB: faith in)
Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: (NASB: faith in)
James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. (NASB: your faith in)
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (NASB: their faith in)
However, it also talks about the faith of people:
Romans 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. (NASB: the faith of)
Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (NASB: the faith of)
2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. (NASB: the faith of)
Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; (NASB: the faith of)
Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. (NASB: the faith of).
Other than in cases using the singular-specific "thy", there is no disagreement between NASB and KJV in the 35 places that Scripture uses the phrase, "your faith", meaning the faith of people. Not a single one attributes the locus of faith to Christ or God, though He is the object of faith in every case.
Returning to the verses where the NASB differs from the KJV, not a single one has a textual variant. That means that the difference is entirely one of interpretation; how the KJV translators used "of" and how it is used today. Because the locus of faith is always in the believer(s) where they are being addressed directly, it is reasonable to conclude that the locus of faith is also in the believer in the "faith of" verses. In other words, "faith of" is a 16th century way of saying "faith in". It isn't the faith "located in Jesus" that justifies us, according to Galatians 2:16, but the faith located in us. God/Christ is the object of faith, not the "exerciser" of it.
The issue, as I see it (which is perhaps different than what the OP was thinking), is an apparent contradiction between the phrases, "faith of Christ" and "faith in Christ". The KJV uses "faith of Christ" or close variants in several places, and at least one KJV-only advocate argues that it is Christ's faith that justifies us, according to Galatians 2:16.
Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? (NASB: faithfulness)
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (NASB: faith in)
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (NASB: faith in for both)
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (NASB: faith in)
Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. (NASB: faith in)
Ephesians 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. (NASB: faith in)
Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: (NASB: faith in)
James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. (NASB: your faith in)
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (NASB: their faith in)
However, it also talks about the faith of people:
Romans 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. (NASB: the faith of)
Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (NASB: the faith of)
2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. (NASB: the faith of)
Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; (NASB: the faith of)
Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. (NASB: the faith of).
Other than in cases using the singular-specific "thy", there is no disagreement between NASB and KJV in the 35 places that Scripture uses the phrase, "your faith", meaning the faith of people. Not a single one attributes the locus of faith to Christ or God, though He is the object of faith in every case.
Returning to the verses where the NASB differs from the KJV, not a single one has a textual variant. That means that the difference is entirely one of interpretation; how the KJV translators used "of" and how it is used today. Because the locus of faith is always in the believer(s) where they are being addressed directly, it is reasonable to conclude that the locus of faith is also in the believer in the "faith of" verses. In other words, "faith of" is a 16th century way of saying "faith in". It isn't the faith "located in Jesus" that justifies us, according to Galatians 2:16, but the faith located in us. God/Christ is the object of faith, not the "exerciser" of it.
Faith is our responsibility.
But many are called but few are chosen.
And no person says Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
And no person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.
So while faith is our responsibility nobody would of ever had that faith to confess Christ unless God intervened in their life when He called them.
But charity is greater than faith, and faith works by love, so there is no faith if a person does not have love which Paul said love does not think an evil thought, and does not sin, and helps the poor and needy or whatever a person needs help with.
But few are chosen for some fail at coming to that faith that saves even though God called them and intervened in their life.
For all God calls He helps them to get to the truth for the calling of God is without repentance on His part but few are chosen so it is up to the individual to make the decision to have that faith for God's kingdom is love, and God is a guide when He calls them, but does not cause them to have faith for they must make that decision.
And faith can only be valid if the person has works of love by the Spirit after they are saved, for charity is greater than faith, and faith works by love.
So then faith is our responsibility for it is our responsibility to have works of love which the Spirit will not twist our arm to do works of love but is a guide to help us and give us power when we decide we want to do works of love.
But many are called but few are chosen.
And no person says Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
And no person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.
So while faith is our responsibility nobody would of ever had that faith to confess Christ unless God intervened in their life when He called them.
But charity is greater than faith, and faith works by love, so there is no faith if a person does not have love which Paul said love does not think an evil thought, and does not sin, and helps the poor and needy or whatever a person needs help with.
But few are chosen for some fail at coming to that faith that saves even though God called them and intervened in their life.
For all God calls He helps them to get to the truth for the calling of God is without repentance on His part but few are chosen so it is up to the individual to make the decision to have that faith for God's kingdom is love, and God is a guide when He calls them, but does not cause them to have faith for they must make that decision.
And faith can only be valid if the person has works of love by the Spirit after they are saved, for charity is greater than faith, and faith works by love.
So then faith is our responsibility for it is our responsibility to have works of love which the Spirit will not twist our arm to do works of love but is a guide to help us and give us power when we decide we want to do works of love.
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Faith; as a labor of his love is responsible first and foremost as his. .yoked with him . He cannot deny himself. If he called us the first time turning us towards him giving us his understanding so that we can seek after Him. It will be the same spirit of faith that will endure to the end .The confidence spoken of in Philippian 1:6 turning us who are accustomed to seeking after the things of this world the temporal .
In all cases he must do the first work our first love. Two works of turning
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.Roman3:10-11
( No vision or ears to hear) )
Again two works working as one of turning. God must do the first work giving us ears that can turn.
Jeremiah 31:17-19 King James Version (KJV) And there is hope in thine end, saith the Lord, that thy children shall come again to their own border. I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God. Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.
In all cases he must do the first work our first love. Two works of turning
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.Roman3:10-11
( No vision or ears to hear) )
Again two works working as one of turning. God must do the first work giving us ears that can turn.
Jeremiah 31:17-19 King James Version (KJV) And there is hope in thine end, saith the Lord, that thy children shall come again to their own border. I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God. Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.
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Hi Mii, those are some interesting terms to understand, contrast and consider Perhaps we should define the various terms for the benefit of the discussion? @Chris1975?
Do we need to look at the Greek (or Hebrew and Greek) to do so, since these terms are so closely related?
Thanks!
~Deut
Perhaps we should define the various terms for the benefit of the discussion? @Chris1975? Do we need to look at the Greek (or Hebrew and Greek) to do so, since these terms are so closely related?
Thanks!
~Deut
This is a scripture where I drew a lot of questions from and so I will post it and get some sleep as of course it is a crucial factor.
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
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I typed a lot more after this and lots of scripture continued to come to remembrance, but I'll run it through the sleep recharge cycle and see what makes it through ha.
I tend to get a "bit" tangential when exhausted and while I personally appreciate it a lot, without background and context, strokes can get potentially "too" broad for a fluid forum discussion with many participants.
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