Torah Observant Christians.

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Dan_473

Dan_473

Senior Member
#41
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
#41
Melach said:
do you circumcise new converts to your church? why not? its in the bible. its in the torah.
Click to expand...
Hi Melach,

Many Torah keepers will say that circumcision nowadays is a spiritual thing, a circumcision of the heart.

Then I ask if circumcision,
which is a kind of initiation or entry level commandment,
is kept spiritually, why not continue on and keep the rest of the law the same way,
spiritually?
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#42
#42
Dan_473 said:
Hi Melach,

Many Torah keepers will say that circumcision nowadays is a spiritual thing, a circumcision of the heart.

Then I ask if circumcision,
which is a kind of initiation or entry level commandment,
is kept spiritually, why not continue on and keep the rest of the law the same way,
spiritually?
Click to expand...
Now your on to something 😉
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#43
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#43
pottersclay said:
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. Some believe Jesus did away with the law.....so what does this scripture mean?
Click to expand...
Context is critical. Some people try to take this and use it as a reason to be Torah observant. But that is definitely not the purpose of that statement.

THE FULFILLMENT OF ALL PROPHECIES
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. (Mt 24:34,35)

THE FULFILLMENT OF THE OLD COVENANT THROUGH CHRIST (MATTHEW 5)
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and notthat thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and notthat thy whole body should be cast into hell.
31It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#44
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
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#44
Melach said:
amen its always that fake torah obedience with no priesthoods and temples. i hate hearing these fake torah observers talk i would rather listen to politicians lie to me than their fake faith.
Click to expand...
Yes. Lies from the politicians can send us into poverty or war, whereas lies from false prophets can send us into eternal doom.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#45
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#45
What the church has done is follow the leadership of Constantine who separated the Christian and the Jewish ideas more than was done by the Jews denying Christ. Constantine followed the idea that the Jews were evil and Christians must not do anything they did.

Scripture is very clear about how they are to be separated. Gentiles are not required to follow Jewish rituals. Jews, according to scripture, were to be Christians and to follow rituals to obedience rather than the Holy Spirit was wrong.

That idea was carried to extremes, and still is. It was like throwing out the baby with the bath water. Friction between Jews and gentiles was established and this is not from God.
With the discovery of the dead sea scrolls much understanding of the OT was discovered and new respect of the OT God was established. There was a new church doctrine that had greater respect for the OT God, and the church went to war against that idea, saying they deny God's instructions to not observe the rituals spoken of in the OT.

God is God in eternal time. Now the Holy Spirit leads instead of rituals, but that is simply God, not old and new. The whole war against the OT ideas is wrong. Everything God did at any time was to be respected as from God, and God is not to be scolded for anything He recommended.
 
Dan_473

Dan_473

Senior Member
#46
Mar 11, 2014
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#46
Blik said:
Now the Holy Spirit leads instead of rituals, but that is simply God, not old and new.
Click to expand...
I can go with the idea of Christians keeping just certain commandments, and the spirit leading Christians to properly separate them.

For me, things like not eating bacon or not working on the 7th day are ritual laws, not things for me to keep.

If the spirit leads a person to keep a particular law, then of course go ahead and keep it! And if the spirit leads a person to do something not specifically commanded in the law, then of course go with the leading of the spirit!

So in the end it really comes down to being led by the spirit, doesn't it?
 
S

SUNDOWNSAM

Active member
#47
Dec 2, 2019
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#47
Aerials1978 said:
I have to disagree. If one is it to follow a portion of these Laws, one must follow all of them. Even the Israelites couldn’t do that. The letter from Apostles to the Church or Antioch addressed Christian Believes whom wanted to be observant to all of the Hebrew Laws.
Click to expand...
---------------
So, are you saying that God gave laws that could not be kept?
 
Aerials1978

Aerials1978

Well-known member
#48
Dec 10, 2019
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#48
SUNDOWNSAM said:
---------------
So, are you saying that God gave laws that could not be kept?
Click to expand...
The Law was given to the Hebrews to show them what sin was. Paul refers to this in Romans chapter 7. If Humans were able to keep the law and never break it(If one law is broken all of them are) there would be no need for sacrificial atonement.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#49
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#49
Blik said:
What the church has done is follow the leadership of Constantine who separated the Christian and the Jewish ideas more than was done by the Jews denying Christ.
Click to expand...
False. Long before Constantine, the apostle Paul wrote extensively (and in depth) that Christian and Jewish ideas needed to be separated.

The Jews of Christ's day had come to the false conclusion that they could establish their own righteousness by becoming Torah observant (and more than Torah observant as seen in the teachings of the Pharisees). However, they were tithing mint, cumin, and herbs, but forgetting the weightier matters of the Law. So Christ exposed them as hypocrites, and warned His disciples about the leaven of the Pharisees.

Paul himself was a Pharisee of the Pharisees. He could have claimed to be the most Torah observant Pharisee. But the Lord Jesus Christ opened his eyes to the truth, brought him to repentance, and showed him that no man can be justified by Torah observance (keeping the Law). For the simple reason that they were breaking the Ten Commandments while they were supposedly observing all the other commandments.

Then Paul went on to show us (by divine inspiration) that (1) there is none righteous, no not one, and (2) that only those who are justified by grace through faith (as was Abraham) are saved by grace and become children of God.

But many Pharisees were also saved during that time, and refused to accept the fact that the Old Covenant had been replaced by the New Covenant, and the Law of Moses had been replaced by the Law of Christ. So some of then started teaching Christians that unless they were also circumcised and became Torah observant, they were not really saved. So Paul had to address these Judaizers in the epistle to the Galatians.

Then God led him to write the epistle to the Hebrews to show Jewish Christians that the Law of Moses had been FULFILLED by Christ, and that everything pertaining to the temple, the Levitical priesthood, the animal sacrifices, the feasts, festivals, sabbath days, and all ceremonial observances were finished. But the Ten Commandments remained within the New Covenant, and were now written on hearts and minds, not on tablets of stone.

Now if anyone tries to revive Torah observance, they are DEFYING God and Christ, not Paul or any apostle. God made it clear in Acts 15 that there were four things which carried over from the Torah, and in fact some of them were from the time of Noah.

For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That [1] ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and [2] from blood, and [3] from things strangled, and [4] from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. (Acts 15:28,29)
 
S

SUNDOWNSAM

Active member
#50
Dec 2, 2019
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#50
Aerials1978 said:
The Law was given to the Hebrews to show them what sin was. Paul refers to this in Romans chapter 7. If Humans were able to keep the law and never break it(If one law is broken all of them are) there would be no need for sacrificial atonement.
Click to expand...
-------------------
What you are saying is that God gave the law knowing that no one could how them? If this is the case then you God is not God, because he had people stone to death for not keeping the law. You need to put the law in its right perspective. Yeshua kept the law, didn't he? The Scriptures tell us, if we walk after the Spirit, the Spirit will fulfill the righteousness of the law. The law has to do with walking in obedience towards God and has nothing to do with Salvation.
 
Aerials1978

Aerials1978

Well-known member
#51
Dec 10, 2019
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#51
SUNDOWNSAM said:
-------------------
What you are saying is that God gave the law knowing that no one could how them? If this is the case then you God is not God, because he had people stone to death for not keeping the law. You need to put the law in its right perspective. Yeshua kept the law, didn't he? The Scriptures tell us, if we walk after the Spirit, the Spirit will fulfill the righteousness of the law. The law has to do with walking in obedience towards God and has nothing to do with Salvation.
Click to expand...
Jesus fulfilled the laws in which those that belong to him are not under the law by His righteousness. Paul went in to great detail with regards to this. Is the moral law a standard in which Christians should strive for? Yes. Are we required to follow them as a commandment by the law itself? No. If you have ever told a lie you’re a liar. You yourself cannot undo that. The law condemns you for such. I get what you’re saying, but we are not called to carry the heavy burden the law requires. Jesus did that for us.
 
S

SUNDOWNSAM

Active member
#52
Dec 2, 2019
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#52
Aerials1978 said:
Jesus fulfilled the laws in which those that belong to him are not under the law by His righteousness. Paul went in to great detail with regards to this. Is the moral law a standard in which Christians should strive for? Yes. Are we required to follow them as a commandment by the law itself? No. If you have ever told a lie you’re a liar. You yourself cannot undo that. The law condemns you for such. I get what you’re saying, but we are not called to carry the heavy burden the law requires. Jesus did that for us.
Click to expand...
----------------------
The law tells you what to refrain from and if you refrain from committing adultery you kept the law "do not commit adultery". Like everyone else, you do not respond accordingly to what I previously stated. Again, so if according to you God knew a person could not hold then why did he have some stoned to death for not keeping the sabbath, especially knowing a man could not hold them as you stated?
 
Aerials1978

Aerials1978

Well-known member
#53
Dec 10, 2019
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#53
SUNDOWNSAM said:
----------------------
The law tells you what to refrain from and if you refrain from committing adultery you kept the law "do not commit adultery". Like everyone else, you do not respond accordingly to what I previously stated. Again, so if according to you God knew a person could not hold then why did he have some stoned to death for not keeping the sabbath, especially knowing a man could not hold them as you stated?
Click to expand...
I answered as to my own understanding. I’m confused as to which position you’re taking. Are say that one needs to obey the law in order to stay obedient? Please answer with a yes or no. I think a lot can get lost in translation on these forums.
 
Aerials1978

Aerials1978

Well-known member
#54
Dec 10, 2019
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#54
Aerials1978 said:
I answered as to my own understanding. I’m confused as to which position you’re taking. Are say that one needs to obey the law in order to stay obedient? Please answer with a yes or no. I think a lot can get lost in translation on these forums.
Click to expand...
And you answer your question, scripture gives us that answer:

but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."
Genesis 2:17

There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.
Proverbs 16:25

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
 
Dan_473

Dan_473

Senior Member
#55
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
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#55
SUNDOWNSAM said:
---------------
So, are you saying that God gave laws that could not be kept?
Click to expand...
(Please pardon my jumping in here)

It's my impression that God gave a set of laws that no one could keep.

Romans 3: 23. for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God.

Sinned how? By not keeping the law if you were an Israelite, or not keeping the law written on your heart if you are a gentile who never heard the law.

That's my impression from the scriptures.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#57
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#57
Nehemiah6 said:
False. Long before Constantine, the apostle Paul wrote extensively (and in depth) that Christian and Jewish ideas needed to be separated.

The Jews of Christ's day had come to the false conclusion that they could establish their own righteousness by becoming Torah observant (and more than Torah observant as seen in the teachings of the Pharisees). However, they were tithing mint, cumin, and herbs, but forgetting the weightier matters of the Law. So Christ exposed them as hypocrites, and warned His disciples about the leaven of the Pharisees.

Paul himself was a Pharisee of the Pharisees. He could have claimed to be the most Torah observant Pharisee. But the Lord Jesus Christ opened his eyes to the truth, brought him to repentance, and showed him that no man can be justified by Torah observance (keeping the Law). For the simple reason that they were breaking the Ten Commandments while they were supposedly observing all the other commandments.

Then Paul went on to show us (by divine inspiration) that (1) there is none righteous, no not one, and (2) that only those who are justified by grace through faith (as was Abraham) are saved by grace and become children of God.

But many Pharisees were also saved during that time, and refused to accept the fact that the Old Covenant had been replaced by the New Covenant, and the Law of Moses had been replaced by the Law of Christ. So some of then started teaching Christians that unless they were also circumcised and became Torah observant, they were not really saved. So Paul had to address these Judaizers in the epistle to the Galatians.

Then God led him to write the epistle to the Hebrews to show Jewish Christians that the Law of Moses had been FULFILLED by Christ, and that everything pertaining to the temple, the Levitical priesthood, the animal sacrifices, the feasts, festivals, sabbath days, and all ceremonial observances were finished. But the Ten Commandments remained within the New Covenant, and were now written on hearts and minds, not on tablets of stone.

Now if anyone tries to revive Torah observance, they are DEFYING God and Christ, not Paul or any apostle. God made it clear in Acts 15 that there were four things which carried over from the Torah, and in fact some of them were from the time of Noah.

For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That [1] ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and [2] from blood, and [3] from things strangled, and [4] from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. (Acts 15:28,29)
Click to expand...
These ideas are muddling things together to make false conclusions.

How the Pharisees thought has nothing to do with truth. We are to learn truth from learning how Christ thought about it, not copy them. Paul did not reject things that scripture told him still was to be listened to like the Sabbath. We find him going to synagogue, and honoring the feast days. He did not preach against these things, but only on fleshly rituals. Paul also understood that we are not to accept sin in our life based on that the Lord only gives salvation based on faith. Paul did not change God's law but pointed out that the law was truly obeyed when the spirit of the law was seen and not just the fleshly rituals of the law. This was always so, as the entire book of Isaiah has this as the theme. Isaiah came before Christ.

We are told of people in Paul's day examining all he taught to see if it agreed with the OT, they felt if Paul changed it then Paul wasn't of God. They did not find any disagreement. Paul was to be stoned for disagreeing with God, and there was a trial testing him. They could not convict him. They would say what you say about Paul is false.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#58
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#58
SUNDOWNSAM said:
---------------
So, are you saying that God gave laws that could not be kept?
Click to expand...
Yes, of course.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#59
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#59
SUNDOWNSAM said:
----------------------
The law tells you what to refrain from and if you refrain from committing adultery you kept the law "do not commit adultery".
Click to expand...
That is absolutely incorrect and the thought that you could so easily keep Gods Spiritual Law shows your lack of understanding.

Matthew 5:27-28
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


That ones a little harder to refrain from. Impossible really, for the carnal man.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#60
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#60
Blik said:
These ideas are muddling things together to make false conclusions.
Click to expand...
Now that is definitely a false conclusion, since I have summarized exactly what is in the New Testament. Had you understood the finished work of Christ properly you would have agreed 100%.
 
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