Apostasy 101

I think the Bible lines up with a God who disciplines His Children even as He keeps them in His Hand.

I absolutely feel secure in my salvation, but it doesn't mean I can grow complacent; God will and has corrected my course, disciplined me, rebuked me as much as He loved me and kept me.

I think there are times we need all of it, but I don't think it means salvation will be lost, I believe the Bible is clear that God's children will overcome..

We aren't terribly far apart though. God bless..

They may never get it

they can’t use context, because if they actually sit and studied the whole passage instead of a few words like they do, their theology would crash and burn.

only God can help them bro. Their pride must be broken, before they will be willing to open their eyes

This is correcting people who think that they earn their Salvation by working at the law. They think they can earn grace by their work.

They are showing that they don't believe in Christ. They have turned away and instead have relied on theirselves.


There are lots of people who are confused about what Christianity really is. This is the case with the Galatians and with ALL new Christians.

Now that I'm Saved by Christ I should be able to work at the law even better than before, right?

But with a little studying of scripture and some prayer the new Christian can instantly see that what Caused His Salvation is the same Cause of his Perfection and his obedience and righteousness.

Someone who wasn't truly saved to begin with may not be able to understand that their works don't save them or keep them saved. It is God who Saves and it is God who keeps them. But if the person hasn't experienced this for themselves then the scripture will make no sense.

Or they will do like the unbeliever and the apostate and they will think they're understanding is the correct understanding and they will teach that Salvation is by the work of men and can be lost by the work of men. If you don't do such and such you're not saved. If you don't continue to do such and such you're not saved. These are all the requirements to attain salvation and you must earn each one. If you stop and don't attain to all of them you will not be saved. Its a popular understanding. But incorrect.

Philippians 2:12-13
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Circumcision wasn't the big deal in Galatians, or in Acts. It is the Law of Moses that is being addressed in both books.

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.


Circumcision wasn't the heavy yoke. Circumcision is easy. It is the Law that is the heavy yoke.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Hebrews 10:29 is ANOTHER hypothetical.

You ASSUME that the punishment for using Sanctification for an excuse to do whatever you want will result in a loss of Salvation.

Then you must also ASSUME that the Law that the Lord has put in our hearts and minds will also have no effect.

You must also assume that even though we have drawn near to God with a heart full of ASSURANCE that also has had no effect.

Our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water, also you must assume had no effect.



Then after all those assumptions you can then GO AGAINST Hebrews 10:23 and attempt to show that He that is faithful really isn't that faithful and a person STILL needs to earn their salvation.



That's a lot of supposition to arrive at the conclusion that a person can lose their salvation because of Hebrews 10. And the absolutely funniest prospect of this is that workers and legalists always claim that OSAS twist the scripture for their own convenience.

that is the whole thing- they think they are " good people".

they do not understand ( or acknowledge) what sin actually is, how deep and sinister it is.

chris75 agreed with me on the actual definition of sin, but then just went right on as if as the definition of sin does not exist......

you know, this is the thing-

they make their theology on assumptions and opinions.

when we give them facts , they do not care, because they have little value for any facts, and no care about facts that mess with their assumptions....

35So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. - Hebrews 10:35

23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. - Hebrews 10:23

14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, f Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. - Hebrews 4:14

12See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. - Hebrews 3:12

1We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. - Hebrews 2:1

6But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory. - Hebrews 3:6

1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. - Hebrews 12:1-2

A whole letter devoted to encouraging the believers in the Hebrews church to keep believing in Christ. Which would be unneeded if Hebrews 10:39 meant they believe and will always believe and will be saved.

Saying this over and over is not what will prove your contention. You have to show us using the context of 'forever' and 'once for all' that the author specifically meant those phrases mean a person can never lose the benefit of Christ's ministry.

I showed in context that it goes no further than saying Christ's ministry does not have to be reapplied like the Levitical ministry had to be. And so they are 'forever' and 'once for all' in that sense. And because that's true, Christ's ministry being perfect and unfailing, the author exhorts us to continue to believe in that ministry.

Just read the emboldened parts (then if you need more context read the rest):

22 ...Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant.

23Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completely (or forever) c those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

26Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens.

27Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

1Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.

Hebrews 7:22-28, 8:1-2

14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, f Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. - Hebrews 4:14

23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, (why?) for he who promised is faithful. - Hebrews 10:23


Now, you do something like that. Use scriptures right in the context to show us that 'forever' and 'for all time' and 'once for all' means you can not lose it, and not just that it does not have to be reapplied. Your meaning of those phrases is not supported by the context. But if I'm wrong, produce that context.

You're saying 'forever' and 'once for all ' HAS to mean you can never lose it. Well, show me that. I'm making you see there really are different, legitimate ways to understand these scriptures than the narrow one sided biased way osas teaches them.

when you say "believe ", it is code for " works".

Getting the popcorn...

That's what I've been saying. Hebrews 10:29 is talking about believers who then deliberately rejected Christ, even if through the gradual hardening of sin, and who are now apostate and do not believe in Christ. They are not present tense believers. If they were still believers they would not be under the penalty of unbelievers. But since they do not believe now, in a trampling on of the blood that sanctified them, their fate is to be condemned with unbelievers. Jesus talks about these kind of people here:

50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. - Matthew 24:50-51


Yes, I agree. These people under the condemnation of the unrighteous in Hebrews 10:29 are not righteous believers. They are former believers, sanctified by the blood of Christ (see Acts 26:18), but who have trampled on that blood in sin and unbelief. These are not present tense believers under the wrath of God. I'm not creating that contradiction. You thought I was because you apparently did not understand the argument.

To believe means to receive the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin.

25God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, i through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. - Romans 3:25

You are the one who is hearing that as, "you must work to earn your salvation". No one is making that argument.

But their 'if' condition is doing of works of righteousness to earn salvation. (So I'm told.)
But the 'if' condition for salvation that I'm defending is the continuance of faith apart from the merit of works to be saved.
BIG difference.
How is it that you can see that?

Even you agree that 'continuing faith' is implied in the faith that saves. You just think that it's impossible to stop believing, while I think it is quite possible, and that it happens (i.e. the Galatians). We wouldn't have several of the New Testament letters written specifically to address the matter of believers who stop believing if it were true that genuine believers can't stop believing.

I agree. Being caught in a besetting sin that requires God's discipline in and of itself doesn't mean salvation will be lost.
The sin that stems from, or leads to a denial of Christ in unbelief is what will cause a person to be in danger of losing their salvation.

That's what this passage means:

If we disown him, he will also disown us;
if we are faithless, he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
2 Timothy 2:12-13

God will remain faithful to the struggling, faithless, but still believing, part of his body.
But he will disown the part of the body that disowns Him.
Christ has no obligation to keep the person who is now no longer part of his body because of unbelief.

As Paul says in Romans 11:20, what we are to fear is being cut out of the tree because of unbelief, not because we haven't got our act together yet. Though we are to resist the hardening of the heart to unbelief through the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), which I think is the message the church needs to hear at this present time. The message of repentance and obedience has been lost in an ear tickling and false message of 'once saved always saved'.

This is a great post.

In addition I would add that those who are without chastening (refuse it) are also I'm very deep trouble...Hebrews 12v8.

So you agree that Galatians shows us that genuine believers can stop believing in Christ.

That's all I'll say for now because I don't know which branch of osas you belong to. I'll address whatever you say in response to this.

Yes!
The most dangerous place for a believer to be in is resisting the chastening of God. You don't know how far God's mercy will extend in your blatant refusal of his correction.

This is for believers that are coming to Christ. They are in the beginning stages of BECOMING a Christian.

Otherwise, it is Paul and Christ that show us that True Salvation can't be lost.

John 10:27-28
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


Romans 8:37-39
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.