Why the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not for Today

They ordained him as a minister just as we do today.

No evidence provided? I asked for the scripture and you respond with a one liner?

Were tongues, casting out demons, taking up serpents .... part of the Baptism? So was raising the dead.

Read 1 Timothy 4v14 again. The GIFT was imparted with the laying on of hands (by the elders). Not the ordaining as minister. Read it again.

When will you admit you are wrong, now that the evidence has been provided?

And how do you know that dead weren't raised in the last 2000 years through prayer?

1. Don't add anything to the word, bible say 2 witnesses you add infallible.

2. It say the 2 witnesses work for 42 month how you say It is a law of Moses and the power of gospel
That law allready exist for more than 2000 years

Show me the verse that say 2 witnesses is law of Moses and power of the gospel, and why only 42 month, power of the gospel has been there for 2000 years.

Back to rev 11:3

When do you think 2 witnesses prophecy?

The Father gave Jesus the Spirit without measure (John 3v34). The gifts are given as He wills. If you have faith like a mustard seed you can move mountains. It's the exercise of faith that holds back the current church. The problem lies not on God's side of the equation. The problem lies in the fact that not many are truly sold out for the Lord in this day and age. How many live like the disciples in the book of Acts? Not many. We are to seek the gifts, ask and receive. The faith in those days was great. And great Fear of the Lord was upon the people. Today, it's more of a casual approach.

Nice one.

Simply put, if signs and wonders have ceased, then there is no way for Revelation 11:6 to be true.

They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire.

Yes I have studied this. I would venture to guess I have studied more about it than you have.. Are you aware that there is evidence for prophecy, tongues, healing, miracles, supernatural knowledge etc continuing after the deaths of the apostles and at least sporadically throughout history? You should study this topic in history.

I do not get your point at all. Timothy received a gift through prophecy which proved gifts are not imparted exclusively through the laying on of hands of the apostles.

You are misreading my post. We are in agreement. Dave is asserting that the Baptism of the spirit is exclusively the laying on of hands and exclusively by the Apostles. I am challenging him that this is not the case. That the Elders ALSO laid on hands (not just the apostles).

Thanks brother

Sorry bro. I have been using my phone and I probably got posters mixed up and lost track in the conversation. Sorry for the confusion.

Ok, First off...I in no way appreciate your remarks about raising the dead. As if someone needed to prove the Lord's spirit by such a miracle. You can see how that is borderline insulting to the spirit right?


I think this is an appropriate launch pad for me to respond a bit. It would help to know why you are coming against people that believe the Word works through many means besides just the written word. Granted, in a particular understanding the written word is himself also, but the revealed word is more than human words and paper which is why I attempt a distinction. You can have the written word and not understand it, because the knowledge has not been given to a person specifically.

Alright so Prophecy, and written word of prophecy it makes sense that it is not to included based off the strong decree otherwise in revelation.

However if you don't believe the events of revelation to have taken place completely or even if you do believe they have taken place partially, it works out the same.

How do you explain Revelation 11:3 "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth." ... "5) And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6) These have the power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over the waters to turn them to blood and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will."

That looks a bit like signs and wonders does it not? Albeit OT style and not exactly pleasant. Interestingly also they are raised from the dead. Not by human hands mind you but it still occurs.



Then also you have the other scripture that someone else already mentioned about in Acts 2:17-18. I can understand how, since it was used right after an outpouring where some were supposing believers to be drunk it may fit in with cessationism, but then you would have to also conclude that was the great and terrible day of the Lord for it to have ceased completely. The last days I will grant as the last days conceivably began with Christ's ascension. So it seems feasible from even the loosest understanding that since that has not occurred with the events leading up to the Millennial Kingdom that it could potentially be in effect factoring in extreme doubts.


So once again, I am curious as to why you are coming on here to purport this. If you are doing so based off certain individuals making a mockery of the Lord's Spirit, and most probably channeling demonic power in extreme instances or being mere charlatans in others then that is laudable. However extreme care must be taken as the enemy has a false imitation of a lot that the Lord does (consider the Egyptian sorcerers) but that there are limits to how far he can go. It stands to reason that certain elements can go beyond an individual believers ability to discern (still arriving/growing) and it is potential folly to take a stance to mock the mockers.

That's like fighting fire with fire. As you are able to perceive a false working, it is prudent to reserve judgement until you have received confirmation that the Lord does not operate "completely" in this way in some instances.

For instance, we know the verse about snakes, but also that it worked out in Paul's life. So why do you think that was mentioned? For one particular instance only? I take that to mean that no earthly force or creation will prevent you from carrying out the work the Lord has called you to. Consider the Lord being with David protecting sheep. Or Daniel with Lions. Or even Moses serpent eating the others. Essentially that Lord will protect his own for the task that he has called them to. I'm not going to speak to the fake versions of snake handling except "how" it occurs. A viper appeared out of the fire and no harm was suffered...He didn't go looking for a snake to pick up to display anything himself. Personally I haven't ever encountered this practice and know of no one that has. Many have "heard" of it...but it certainly doesn't even sound good. So I guess I'm not sure why you would use that as a talking point at all.


So I am all of a sudden tired and the time got away from me again alas. I want to engage you if you are genuine as I am pretty suspicious and am not at all a fan of mockery of the Lord's Spirit. So there is a lot of profitable discussion that may be able to be had if you just had a brush with something vile and as a defense mechanism ran toward cessationism. A personal conviction is that great care must be taken when discussing manifestation of the Spirit so I do not want to be hasty.

I will say in closing that there a good few things that I don't get about the Lord, life, and the gospel. There are some seeming discrepancies that continue to make more sense as I go along but I have seen quite a few things and I pay attention. There are limits to what our minds can understand and while I'd like to set this verse up a little bit I am curious what you make of it. For myself, any unanswered "hang ups" that the body is split about or there is confusion about due to a seeming unpierceable element in the text or a believer's walk in general I default to this verse as well as faith not being sight. I can pick this up if you'd like but since a lot of people believe the church will be raptured prior to this moment it is of import in discussing matters that have opposing opinions. I am NOT getting into a rapture discussion because that is another split community topic and people are so resolute in opposing ways that it is astounding that each and every one of them is right. Then again, perhaps each should be fully convinced in their own minds for hidden purposes. Who knows. Not I. There are times I expect it any day and then others where I observe a little more closely and it seems years away and sometimes decades. For some reason I don't believe I'll have any part in it en masse, so that of course colors my view. Not sure...I'm starting to get side trailed and respond to all unclear expressions. You know scripture, is it possible to reserve judgement?



Anyway it comes right after the seven thunders (which are a mystery)...

Revelation Chapter 10: 7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Chrismation

As it still is today, and has been for thousands of years. That having been said, it is the universal testimony of the fathers of the church that the gift of tongues was the miraculous ability to speak a foreign language and it ceased very early in church history.

Miracles - such as the return of the Holy Fire to Jesus tomb at the Holy Sepulcher every Pentecost - do occur, but they are not designed to validate any individual‘s specific ministry or title as apostle or prophet .

Oh, and a few corrections.

The Shepherd of Hermès dates to the second century AD.

In the 300s AD both St. John Chrysotom and St. Augustine documented that tongues had ceased.

Montanists weren’t cessasionists, they were the original Pentecostals who claimed that the sign gifts continued after the canon of scripture was completed in the 300s AD. That specific heresy lasted for about 300 years before dying out. The reality is that you can only pretend to fake miracles for so long before the people catch on to it.

An examination of church history does not support the Pentecostal view.

The Apostles had the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and raised the dead. The rest had the gift of the Holy Spirit and didn't.

Lots of hearsay. But no first hand witnesses.