Why the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not for Today
- Thread starter Dave-L
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
And I suppose that if it's not recorded in scripture then it didn't happen?
How can you state with utmost certainty that a thing did not occur? Scripture is sufficient unto the task of men, it doesn't say that these are the only acts of the Lord and that anything that is not recorded therein is not an act of the Lord.
Did you read at all the bulk of the text I posted to you?
To me that's akin to saying that only what was recorded in scripture is what Jesus did. Or similarly of Paul.
This is the scripture that comes to mind regarding things unwritten. Then we must understand why the framework of what is written is what we have.
John 21:25 "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."
See the problem with making a statement that a thing cannot occur when there is no scripture that says it cannot occur is that it's too arbitrary to be of use to anyone seeking truth or seeking to walk humbly within the righteousness of Christ.
It seems in no way humble to say only the apostles did this and despite there being no scripture explicitly stating so or even implying it except through the lack of explicitly stating otherwise. Do you see how this seems contrary to seeking truth? If you are indeed here to understand and bounce concepts off believers, why interact in such a way as to seem completely closed to any truth other than what you think you have found.
It reminds me of another thread by another user that said that a thing cannot be true unless it is confirmed by apostolic witness. This person was presumed much by operating under the assumption that they fully understood one scripture enough to declare both Acts and Luke not scripture. As if the true nature of apostleship were some soda at a gas station that they could buy, consume, and then understand all the mysteries of it and condemn anything offhand. Essentially exalting themself to the level of the Lord on a particular issue. I hope this is not the case in this instance. Spend some time in Job, breath the Lord's response to Job...I find that quite responsible regarding pride when I am contending against the Lord or the body as a whole. It isn't intentional personally, but it can happen when I want to "force" understanding. Sometimes the pace at which our understanding comes is irritating...which is why crucifying the flesh is crucial.
So I ask again. Why did you start this thread? It would help if you are interested in further interaction.
How can you state with utmost certainty that a thing did not occur? Scripture is sufficient unto the task of men, it doesn't say that these are the only acts of the Lord and that anything that is not recorded therein is not an act of the Lord.
Did you read at all the bulk of the text I posted to you?
To me that's akin to saying that only what was recorded in scripture is what Jesus did. Or similarly of Paul.
This is the scripture that comes to mind regarding things unwritten. Then we must understand why the framework of what is written is what we have.
John 21:25 "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."
See the problem with making a statement that a thing cannot occur when there is no scripture that says it cannot occur is that it's too arbitrary to be of use to anyone seeking truth or seeking to walk humbly within the righteousness of Christ.
It seems in no way humble to say only the apostles did this and despite there being no scripture explicitly stating so or even implying it except through the lack of explicitly stating otherwise. Do you see how this seems contrary to seeking truth? If you are indeed here to understand and bounce concepts off believers, why interact in such a way as to seem completely closed to any truth other than what you think you have found.
It reminds me of another thread by another user that said that a thing cannot be true unless it is confirmed by apostolic witness. This person was presumed much by operating under the assumption that they fully understood one scripture enough to declare both Acts and Luke not scripture. As if the true nature of apostleship were some soda at a gas station that they could buy, consume, and then understand all the mysteries of it and condemn anything offhand. Essentially exalting themself to the level of the Lord on a particular issue. I hope this is not the case in this instance. Spend some time in Job, breath the Lord's response to Job...I find that quite responsible regarding pride when I am contending against the Lord or the body as a whole. It isn't intentional personally, but it can happen when I want to "force" understanding. Sometimes the pace at which our understanding comes is irritating...which is why crucifying the flesh is crucial.
So I ask again. Why did you start this thread? It would help if you are interested in further interaction.
-
3
- Show all
You have certainly seen each and every believer and their walk in its entirety with all their life experiences, struggles, and victories to be able to state this?
You "want" to see a true manifestation I gather...do you not think the Lord has the power to darken your understanding and be unable to find what you are seeking. Is it possible that the way in which you are seeking follows his statement to "those" asking/demanding for a sign to prove he was the messiah?
It's not a peep show bro. If you engage it with this mentality (I have) you are unlikely to ever "see" anything except the imitation and if you see the Lord work it won't be a good thing (consider Balaam). The arrogance to assume that anyone and everyone can simply go observe signs and miracles at their whim is disturbing. If they can't see it and have not observed it, it doesn't exist today? If I don't see someone raised from the dead, it is a myth? You can see how this could be borderline wicked and perverse can't you?
I encourage you to spend some time in prayer about it, release a little tension...get some fresh air. I've come at things almost as an enemy before and it's definitely something for each of us to guard against.
You "want" to see a true manifestation I gather...do you not think the Lord has the power to darken your understanding and be unable to find what you are seeking. Is it possible that the way in which you are seeking follows his statement to "those" asking/demanding for a sign to prove he was the messiah?
It's not a peep show bro. If you engage it with this mentality (I have) you are unlikely to ever "see" anything except the imitation and if you see the Lord work it won't be a good thing (consider Balaam). The arrogance to assume that anyone and everyone can simply go observe signs and miracles at their whim is disturbing. If they can't see it and have not observed it, it doesn't exist today? If I don't see someone raised from the dead, it is a myth? You can see how this could be borderline wicked and perverse can't you?
I encourage you to spend some time in prayer about it, release a little tension...get some fresh air. I've come at things almost as an enemy before and it's definitely something for each of us to guard against.
-
2
- Show all
I can see that you are a cessationalist. In a sense, I can understand why the appeal of cessationalists.
When you talk about signs and wonders, you are talking about specific miracles that are made to testify to the watching Jewish nation that their Messiah has arrived on Earth.
During that one year in Acts when the Gospel of the Kingdom was still valid, signs and wonders by the 12 apostles were similarly necessary to testify to Israel that their message about Jesus as their promised Messiah is also correct, since Jesus was no longer physically around. Indeed, Jesus promised them that before he ascended back to heaven (Mark 16:17-18).
The Jews were promised in the OT that, when their true Messiah came, he will be verifying his identity with signs and wonders. The Gospel of John was uniquely structured by testifying to 8 specific signs and wonders for that purpose, beginning with turning water into wine (John 2:11), all the way to the resurrection of Christ.
Based on this doctrine, there is definitely a significant group of Christians who believe that, once the completed canon of scripture came with Paul, there is no longer any need for signs and wonders. Now, under the Gospel of the Grace of God, we believe God by faith, not by sight.
When you talk about signs and wonders, you are talking about specific miracles that are made to testify to the watching Jewish nation that their Messiah has arrived on Earth.
During that one year in Acts when the Gospel of the Kingdom was still valid, signs and wonders by the 12 apostles were similarly necessary to testify to Israel that their message about Jesus as their promised Messiah is also correct, since Jesus was no longer physically around. Indeed, Jesus promised them that before he ascended back to heaven (Mark 16:17-18).
The Jews were promised in the OT that, when their true Messiah came, he will be verifying his identity with signs and wonders. The Gospel of John was uniquely structured by testifying to 8 specific signs and wonders for that purpose, beginning with turning water into wine (John 2:11), all the way to the resurrection of Christ.
Based on this doctrine, there is definitely a significant group of Christians who believe that, once the completed canon of scripture came with Paul, there is no longer any need for signs and wonders. Now, under the Gospel of the Grace of God, we believe God by faith, not by sight.
-
1
- Show all
Dave-O can you show me scripture that shows that any of the figures in New Testament scripture used ( the cultural equivalent of) the toilet? Would you therefore conclude that they did not.
I cannot find scripture that says the apostles are anything dipped in vinegar. Can I conclude that they did not?
Eusebius records that Barsabas whose lot did not win in Acts 1 was poisoned but not harmed. Is that false because it is not recorded in scripture?
Histiry tells of Patrick bringing the gospel to Ireland. Us that false because it is not recorded in scripture.
Many miracles are attributed to Patrick. The two writings from him that historians accept tell how he had a vision that directed him to escape Ireland and that he heard a supernatural voice calling him to return.
I cannot find scripture that says the apostles are anything dipped in vinegar. Can I conclude that they did not?
Eusebius records that Barsabas whose lot did not win in Acts 1 was poisoned but not harmed. Is that false because it is not recorded in scripture?
Histiry tells of Patrick bringing the gospel to Ireland. Us that false because it is not recorded in scripture.
Many miracles are attributed to Patrick. The two writings from him that historians accept tell how he had a vision that directed him to escape Ireland and that he heard a supernatural voice calling him to return.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Hmm well for me in a bible study they asked if I wanted the holy Spirit. I said yes. They read what the word of God says about that. Then asked me again if I wanted it. They prayed and then just stopped. Said "thats it you got it". Looking back gee thats what the word of God says in Luke. You ask the Father for the holy Spirit and He will give it to those that ask. For me if John 3 16 is true is not the same for luke? Nothing happened. No one said a word. I got up went to sit down and tongues just came out. I was not trying nor thinking anything. Oh praise GOD glory to Jesus... I praise GOD He always keeps His word.
Was not till many years passed that I put what happen in the word was exactly what happen to me. Ask pray receive. For me MAN is the only one that says its dead gone. Yet.. EVER gift that is written in the word.. I still see happening TODAY! Why not ask HIM the Father and then believe as HE told us to. Just take HIM by faith that if HE said it He will do it.
Was not till many years passed that I put what happen in the word was exactly what happen to me. Ask pray receive. For me MAN is the only one that says its dead gone. Yet.. EVER gift that is written in the word.. I still see happening TODAY! Why not ask HIM the Father and then believe as HE told us to. Just take HIM by faith that if HE said it He will do it.
-
2
- Show all
I believe most are symbols. If you look for the symbols to become real you will never see the message. If you look for what the symbols represent, it's been happening since Jesus came the first time. Revelation 20 covers the entire NT era. We are now in the portion where Satan has been loosed and Christendom under attack, just before Christ's return.