Life after death.

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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#41
Once they have paid for their sins , GOD will bring them to ashes upon the Ground ,
This I think is the crux of the matter. There is no 'paying for sins' by finite creatures. They will; have to pay eternally for offending an eternal Being. That is why only the eternal God Himself could bear the wrath needed to satisfy the justice demanded.
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
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#42
Isaiah ask who shall dwell with the everlasting burning , Then he tells That it is the Righteous , What is it that you can't see .
You couldn't be anymore plainer then that. But when you believe in a eternal hell , like I did also at one time , But I praise GOD Because HE has open my eyes on that , And now I can see GODs true LOVE for the Sinners , And for HIS saints also, IT GETS in the way of a lot The truths of GOD , And keeps us from seeing a hole lot of GODs plain truths . GOD bless as HE sees fit .

View attachment 210559
You should read before the question...in isa 33

I am not saying you are wrong. The righteous will dwell with God..
But ur interpretation that righteous will burn...

Isa 33:16 KJV He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
 
Jan 4, 2020
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washburn Tn
#43
This I think is the crux of the matter. There is no 'paying for sins' by finite creatures. They will; have to pay eternally for offending an eternal Being. That is why only the eternal God Himself could bear the wrath needed to satisfy the justice demanded.
The wages For sin IS death , Romans 6:23 ,And we can pay it But we would haft to die for ever for our sins , And HE paid that price FOR us IF we will repent of our sins . HE doesn't want us to PERISH , JESUS SAYS I tell you , Nay : but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#44
He uses the same word for the Soul and the Body , destroy ,WHEN you destroy , it is gone , When something perishes , it is gone ,
I do not care how you say it , the soul or the body ,When we say that soul will not die , We make GOD a LIER , GOD says THE soul that sineth it shall DIE , GOD is the truth ,WE are LIER , when we Don't believe GOD and go on what we think .God be with us, as HE sees fit .
He is going to bring Satan to ashes upon the ground , And he will be no more , And so HE will the sinners all so , Satan is destroyed
Eze 28:14 - 19 , AND the sinners are turn to ashes in MAL 4:1-4 And they will be gone also . eternally gone , will be their punishment not eternal burning . that would not be dead . anything that can fill pain , is not dead , THE SOUL THAT SINNETH IT SHALL DIE , Eze 18:4 & 18:20
Hello Bud62!

What you have stated is not true. Compare the two scriptures below:

"When He got into the boat, His disciples followed Him. Suddenly a violent storm came up on the sea, so that the boat was engulfed by the waves; but Jesus was sleeping. The disciples went and woke Him, saying, “Lord, save us! We are perishing!"

Both scriptures above use the same Greek word apollumi, which means to be completely cut of, complete loss of well being, ruination, not annihilation or nonexistence. So, are you saying that in the first scripture that the disciples are saying "Lord, save us! We are going to cease to exist? And what about the following:

"Neither is new wine put into old wineskins. If it is, the skins burst and the wine is spilled and the skins are destroyed. But new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved.”

If new wine is poured into old wineskins and they burst, do the wine skins and wine disappear, ceasing to exist? No! They still exist but are ruined. The same word is used in the following scripture:

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

The destruction that God will destroy with will be eternal existence in separation from God in the lake of fire, not cessation of existence.

Life and death are both states of eternal existence based on ones status with God.

Life = Eternal conscious existence in the presence and joy of the Lord in the kingdom of God

Death = Eternal conscious existence in separation from God in the Lake of fire

He is going to bring Satan to ashes upon the ground , And he will be no more , And so HE will the sinners all so , Satan is destroyed
"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

First of all, Satan is spirit and not flesh that he should have his ashes upon the ground.

Notice in the scripture above, that it states that the beast and the false prophet who will have been thrown into the lake of fire a thousand years earlier, will be tormented day and night forever and ever, right along with Satan. If destruction meant that your gone, as in nonexistence as you claim, they would not be able to experience anything, One would have to be existing, conscious and aware, in order to experience torment day and night. And what about those who worship the beast:

"If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or on his hand, he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. Day and night there is no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

By the way, one would have to be conscious and existing in order to be tormented in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb.

And what about the souls under the altar at the opening of the 5th seal?

What about the rich man in torment in flame and having a conversation with Abraham?

I could go on and on as there are many scriptures which demonstrate the conscious existence of the spirit after death for both the righteous and the wicked.

It is important to check the definitions of the Greek words apollumi, apoleia and Olethros in order to understand the meaning behind the translated words destruction, perish or ruined. Just fyi, none of them infer annihilation or nonexistence, but to be completely cut of, complete loss of well being and ruination, in an existing state.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#45
He uses the same word for the Soul and the Body , destroy ,WHEN you destroy , it is gone , When something perishes , it is gone ,
I do not care how you say it , the soul or the body ,When we say that soul will not die , We make GOD a LIER , GOD says THE soul that sineth it shall DIE , GOD is the truth ,WE are LIER , when we Don't believe GOD and go on what we think .God be with us, as HE sees fit .
He is going to bring Satan to ashes upon the ground , And he will be no more , And so HE will the sinners all so , Satan is destroyed
Eze 28:14 - 19 , AND the sinners are turn to ashes in MAL 4:1-4 And they will be gone also . eternally gone , will be their punishment not eternal burning . that would not be dead . anything that can fill pain , is not dead , THE SOUL THAT SINNETH IT SHALL DIE , Eze 18:4 & 18:20
Remember, the reference to "ashes" is referring to the body, not the spirit. Both the righteous and the wicked will receive resurrected bodies, albeit for the wicked they will be bodies mete for their punishment.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#46
It also uses ever , The same way , [ general uses ] I do think that when GOD , destroys and purifies this earth , at the end of the world .
that will be fore ever . Just like when a car is milted down and turn into another car . we would not call it the same old car ,it would be a new car .
AND that would be for ever & ever for the old car , the same for the earth , when HE renews the earth , time will end for this world , and restart in the new , and to me that would be forever , And the smoke that go up for ever , DOSE not mean that they are still burning . Because it don't agree with other places in the BIBLE . When the BIBLE don't agree all the way through it ,IT is because we are not seeing it the right way . JESUS's mind is far above our little minds , AND we are no different then HIS disciples ,
they didn't understand a lot of the times , GOD bless & be with you ALL as HE sees fit .
And the smoke that go up for ever , DOES not mean that they are still burning.
That's exactly what it says and means! They shall be tormented day and night. And the smoke of their torment will rise up forever and ever. This is exactly what is going to happen. All your attempting to do is distort the plain meaning of what is being said. Think about a resurrected body that cannot be destroyed with that unsaved person in it. The smoke of his torment will rise up forever and ever.

Jesus spoke so that we could understand what He what He was saying, just the word of God is written so that we can understand it. People are always trying to infer that we can't know what scripture is saying.

If the plain literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#47
watcher2013, post: 4144792, member: 171216"]It shall die indeed... when God judged the wicked and cast them in the lake of fire....[
When the Fire is done burning the wicked ,IT will stop burning , The BIBLE says in ISA 47:14 Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at , nor fire to sit before it. Their SOULs will be ashes up on the ground just like MAL 4:1-4 tells us .
So much for "everlasting fire!" The inference of "everlasting fire" is aimed at those who will end up in it. If people were burned up on contact, once the last person was thrown in, there would no longer be any reason to keep the fire going. The separation from God and the torment in flame is the punishment.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#48
Just like Satan that GOD will bring to ashes in EZE 28:18, SO will they also will be ashes .GOD says it that settle it.
You need to consider the whole word of God in order to come to a right conclusion. Below is Satan's fate:

And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

God said the above, that settles it!
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#49
The wages For sin IS death , Romans 6:23 ,And we can pay it But we would haft to die for ever for our sins , And HE paid that price FOR us IF we will repent of our sins . HE doesn't want us to PERISH , JESUS SAYS I tell you , Nay : but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

apollumi/Perish: to incur the loss of true or eternal life; to be delivered up to eternal misery:
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#50
HE doesn't want us to PERISH , JESUS SAYS I tell you , Nay : but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Taking it further...

Mat_18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Mat_25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mat_25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

You need to come to grips with reconciling 'perish' with 'everlasting punishment' so both are included.
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
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#51
So much for "everlasting fire!" The inference of "everlasting fire" is aimed at those who will end up in it. If people were burned up on contact, once the last person was thrown in, there would no longer be any reason to keep the fire going. The separation from God and the torment in flame is the punishment.
Everlasting fire exists...for the devil and his angels....
So the fire will continue even if the last soul is destroyed.
Angels did not experience..the 1st death.
Angels dont die.
Mat 10:28 he can destroy both body and soul.
Second death are for those who died the first death.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#52
Everlasting fire exists...for the devil and his angels....
So the fire will continue even if the last soul is destroyed.
Angels did not experience..the 1st death.
Angels dont die.
Mat 10:28 he can destroy both body and soul.
Second death are for those who died the first death.
Agreed! Everlasting fire, though prepared for Satan and his angels, will also be the place of punishment for the unsaved.

Those who are cast into it will exist forever, which is the meaning behind everlasting fire. For scripture does not teach annihilation or extinction.
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
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#53
Agreed! Everlasting fire, though prepared for Satan and his angels, will also be the place of punishment for the unsaved.

Those who are cast into it will exist forever, which is the meaning behind everlasting fire. For scripture does not teach annihilation or extinction.
Angels that sinned will be tormented in the lake of fire in eternity.
Man that sinned. God will destroy both body and soul in lake of fire...second death...
Though their smoke rise up with the smoke of angels. Forever.
What does it mean, the soul that sinneth shall die...
We know everybody good or bad will die...
Body dies..return to dust...
Soul will it die?
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#55
Angels that sinned will be tormented in the lake of fire in eternity.
Man that sinned. God will destroy both body and soul in lake of fire...second death...
Though their smoke rise up with the smoke of angels. Forever.
Make no mistake, the scriptures are clear, that those who are reserved for the lake of fire will remain there, conscious and aware, just as the beast, the false prophet and Satan will. Scripture does not teach annihilation or extinction. Both life and death are states of eternal existence based on an individuals state of being with God.

As I said previously, both the righteous and the wicked will receive resurrected bodies, albeit, the wicked will receive bodies mete for their punishment.

And by the way, the reason that the smoke of their torment will rise up forever and ever, is because they will still be there in those resurrected bodies. One would have to be existing in order for them to experience torment.
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
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#56
Make no mistake, the scriptures are clear, that those who are reserved for the lake of fire will remain there, conscious and aware, just as the beast, the false prophet and Satan will. Scripture does not teach annihilation or extinction. Both life and death are states of eternal existence based on an individuals state of being with God.

As I said previously, both the righteous and the wicked will receive resurrected bodies, albeit, the wicked will receive bodies mete for their punishment.

And by the way, the reason that the smoke of their torment will rise up forever and ever, is because they will still be there in those resurrected bodies. One would have to be existing in order for them to experience torment.
The scripture said the the fire there cannot be quenched...so means that fire will last till eternity


Can you give me at least one verse that the soul of the sinner (except for thw angels, we know they live forever) will not die in there and it will be on fire till eternity...
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
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#57
Make no mistake, the scriptures are clear, that those who are reserved for the lake of fire will remain there, conscious and aware, just as the beast, the false prophet and Satan will. Scripture does not teach annihilation or extinction. Both life and death are states of eternal existence based on an individuals state of being with God.

As I said previously, both the righteous and the wicked will receive resurrected bodies, albeit, the wicked will receive bodies mete for their punishment.

And by the way, the reason that the smoke of their torment will rise up forever and ever, is because they will still be there in those resurrected bodies. One would have to be existing in order for them to experience torment.
Have a full read of matthew 18... and come back with your comments...
For me matthew 18 shows a righteous judgement.
Mat 18:34 KJV And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

1. Man like hitler... order the massacre of millions of jews
2. A simple man who killed a man defending her sister...bith do not believe in God...

Will they both suffer the same length of time (eternity) in eternal fire?

I think God is a righteous judge...even for the sinners.
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
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#58
Have a full read of matthew 18... and come back with your comments...
For me matthew 18 shows a righteous judgement.
Mat 18:34 KJV And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

1. Man like hitler... order the massacre of millions of jews
2. A simple man who killed a man defending her sister...bith do not believe in God...

Will they both suffer the same length of time (eternity) in eternal fire?

I think God is a righteous judge...even for the sinners.
In addition,
Why the need to judge the sinners ACCORDING to their works...
Rev 20:13 KJV And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.