John6: What does this piece mean?

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Chris1975

Chris1975

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Open question to the CC community.

We see this piece in John 6:

Verse 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

And then we see a few verses later

Verse 44-45 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

- What is it that these have heard and learned from the Father?
-As this is prerequisite to the Father drawing them, and prerequisite to the Father giving them to Christ.
 
posthuman

posthuman

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hey! i was bringing this up last month in another thread in an obscure corner of the BDF, here:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...tonement-biblical.187815/page-12#post-4100856

Chris1975 said:
- What is it that these have heard and learned from the Father?
-As this is prerequisite to the Father drawing them, and prerequisite to the Father giving them to Christ.
Click to expand...
they learn from the Father about who the Son is - lifted up just as the serpent in the wilderness.

Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah,
for flesh and blood has not revealed to you,
but My Father who is in heaven!
(Matthew 16:17)
​
He calls him Simon son of Jonah for a reason: it's part of the Simeon prophecy:

And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the Consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. So he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when the parents brought in the Child Jesus, to do for Him according to the custom of the law, he took Him up in his arms and blessed God and said:​
“Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace,
According to Your word;
For my eyes have seen Your Salvation
Which You have prepared before the face of all peoples,
A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles,
And the glory of Your people Israel.”​
And Joseph and His mother marveled at those things which were spoken of Him. Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, “Behold, this is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against (yes, a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”
(Luke 2:25-35)
​
and it obviously relates to the sign of Jonah. it's who Christ is; He is The Salvation of God, Yeshua, Yah is Salvation, God with us :)
being drawn by the Father to the Son, the Son draws them to Himself, revealing & declaring the Father - because:

no one knows who the Son is except the Father,
and who the Father is except the Son, and to whom the Son wills to reveal
(Luke 10:22) ​
​
is the drawing of the Father also the giving?
 
Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy

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Chris1975 said:
Open question to the CC community.

We see this piece in John 6:

Verse 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

And then we see a few verses later

Verse 44-45 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

- What is it that these have heard and learned from the Father?
-As this is prerequisite to the Father drawing them, and prerequisite to the Father giving them to Christ.
Click to expand...
Hello Chris, I don't think that v45's "hearing and learning from the Father" is a prerequisite to His drawing of us. It certainly precedes our choice to come Jesus, but I see it as a part of the Father's drawing (rather than something that comes before it).

Here is some of what Dr. Carson has this to say about v45 (in light of v44),

Jesus proceeds to explain what kind of ‘drawing’ (v. 44) the Father exercises. When he compels belief, it is not by the savage constraint of a rapist, but by the wonderful wooing of a lover. Otherwise put, it is by an insight, a teaching, an illumination implanted within the individual, in fulfillment of the Old Testament promise, They will all be taught by God. ~Carson, D. A. (1991). The Gospel according to John (p. 293). Inter-Varsity Press; W.B. Eerdmans.​

Carson's point about v45 is an important one I think, because it helps us to properly understand the meaning of the Greek word that the Lord chose to use in v44 for "draws".

The lexicon definition of ἑλκύω [helkuo] / "draws" is "to compel, to drag, lead, impel, to draw by an inward power and/or irresistible force", both Biblically and extra-Biblically. For instance, Peter "drew" his sword, Paul and Silas were "dragged" before the magistrates in the marketplace. In this case however, while the Father's "drawing" compels all who are drawn to come to His Son, the sense is that His drawing 'leads', rather than 'drags' us to Jesus.

There's a Greek play that uses ἑλκύω in a similar way when it speaks of using a cup to draw water from a basin which, again, shows that this Greek word can have a very gentle sense to it. Nevertheless, we do not "woo" or "entice" water out of a basin, we compel it to come, yes? So is the sense of things with all who are "drawn" by the Father.

~Deut
p.s. - there are other Greek words, such as James 1:14's δελεάζω [deleazo], that mean things like "entice" or "woo", "beg" or "plead" etc., but that is not what the Father does when He draws us to His Son.

​
John 6
65 Jesus was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
​
 
bud62

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Chris1975 said:
Open question to the CC community.

We see this piece in John 6:

Verse 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

And then we see a few verses later

Verse 44-45 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

- What is it that these have heard and learned from the Father?
-As this is prerequisite to the Father drawing them, and prerequisite to the Father giving them to Christ.
Click to expand...
And I ,if I be lifted up from the earth ,will draw all unto me . every body , every one , is drawed by JESUS . But just a few will come .
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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Chris1975 said:
What is it that these have heard and learned from the Father?
Click to expand...
One needs to take the entire chapter into account to properly understand this verse. In brief, when the Gospel is preached, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit work in concert, in order to draw all men to Christ. Here the Son speaks about the Father. In other passages He speaks about Himself and the Holy Spirit. Since God will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth, no one is excluded. But only those who respond to the drawing of God will be saved.
 
Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy

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bud62 said:
And I ,if I be lifted up from the earth ,will draw all unto me . every body , every one , is drawed by JESUS . But just a few will come.
Click to expand...
Hello Bud62, since we know that many have and will continue to die without ever hearing Jesus' name (and that there are many more who may have 1. heard His name but 2. have absolutely no understanding whatsoever of who He is, why He had to come here as a man, and/or why they need Him to be their Savior), how can we possibly say that ALL (men, women & children), without exception, have been/are being "drawn" to Him :unsure:

Thanks!

~Deut
 
bud62

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Deuteronomy said:
Hello Bud62, since we know that many have and will continue to die without ever hearing Jesus' name (and that there are many more who may have 1. heard His name but 2. have absolutely no understanding whatsoever of who He is, why He had to come here as a man, and/or why they need Him to be their Savior), how can we possibly say that ALL (men, women & children), without exception, have been/are being "drawn" to Him :unsure:

Thanks!

~Deut
Click to expand...
JESUS says that man love darkness ,rather then Light ,Because their deeds were evil , GOD bless as HE sees Fit .

Capture5 (2).PNG
 
JaumeJ

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"No one can come to the Father buet by Me." When we are broken and look to Whoever Is, He rewards us with faith. It is only by faith we come to Jesus and follow Him, Our Everlassting Fathwer. Isaiah 9:6 in part.
 
Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy

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bud62 said:
JESUS says that man love darkness ,rather then Light ,Because their deeds were evil , GOD bless as HE sees Fit.
Click to expand...
Hello again Bud62, the Bible agrees with you (and so do I :)), God blesses us as He sees fit .. e.g. Exodus 33:19; Romans 9:15.

The question I had for you in post #6 remains however, "since we know that many have and will continue to die without ever hearing Jesus' name (& many others will die knowing nothing at all about Him, even though they've heard His name), what did He mean when He said, "when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw ~all~ men to Myself" .. John 12:32, if by, "all men", He truly meant all, w/o exception :unsure:

If, "GOD blesses us as HE sees fit", is your answer to that question, I'm afraid that I'm not following you and, therefore, am hoping that you would explain what you mean with a bit more detail.

Thanks :)

~Deut
 
lightbearer

lightbearer

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Chris1975 said:
Open question to the CC community.

We see this piece in John 6:

Verse 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

And then we see a few verses later

Verse 44-45 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

- What is it that these have heard and learned from the Father?
-As this is prerequisite to the Father drawing them, and prerequisite to the Father giving them to Christ.
Click to expand...
Good morning Chris! The answer to the question you asked is the Word.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

They shall be taught of GOD.
How?

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
(Deu 30:6 KJV)

The LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart.
How? Lets take a look.

If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment ( hearkening unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law,) which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word ( the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law) is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
(Deu 30:10-14 KJV)

This promise of, "The word ( the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law) is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it." to ancient Israel is stated in the present tense and repeated in in the New Testament.


But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (The word, the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law), down from above, Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (The word, the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law) again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
(Rom 10:6-8 KJV)

It has always been about Faith, through Christ in the heart. And Faith, Christ in the heart is a Gift from God.

If we have Faith through Christ in the heart we have the voice of God, the word to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in the Book of the Law their also.
 
Dave-L

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Chris1975 said:
Open question to the CC community.

We see this piece in John 6:

Verse 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

And then we see a few verses later

Verse 44-45 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

- What is it that these have heard and learned from the Father?
-As this is prerequisite to the Father drawing them, and prerequisite to the Father giving them to Christ.
Click to expand...
Only the born again will perceive the true Christ. Paul says ;

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

“He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” Matthew 16:15–17 (KJV 1900)

And: “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” Galatians 5:22 (KJV 1900)

So how do you know you are saved? Had God not given you the Holy Spirit first, you would never believe in the true Christ. You would at best worship an idol in his name.
 
bud62

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Deuteronomy said:
Hello again Bud62, the Bible agrees with you (and so do I :)), God blesses us as He sees fit .. e.g. Exodus 33:19; Romans 9:15.

The question I had for you in post #6 remains however, "since we know that many have and will continue to die without ever hearing Jesus' name (& many others will die knowing nothing at all about Him, even though they've heard His name), what did He mean when He said, "when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw ~all~ men to Myself" .. John 12:32, if by, "all men", He truly meant all, w/o exception :unsure:

If, "GOD blesses us as HE sees fit", is your answer to that question, I'm afraid that I'm not following you and, therefore, am hoping that you would explain what you mean with a bit more detail.

Thanks :)

~Deut
Click to expand...
Abraham & Isaac & Jacob & Moses , I don't believe that they ever heard the Name of JESUS ether , But they sure will haft to be saved through & by HIS BLOOD . It's Not what we don't know , that will cause us to be lost . Thou it could part of it if we are not wanting to know the real truth about JESUS , AND run from the truth , Because of sins that we want to hold to . This will cause us to be lost . If we are holding on to sins that we know is sin. But it is what we know & don't do , Is what will cause us to be lost . We are saved through the NAME of JESUS ,And by HIM & HIS BLOOD .But I believe there will be people in Heaven that didn't know the NAME of JESUS . For GOD is going to judge us by what we KNOW , and NOT BY WHAT WE DON"T KNOW . If we are wanting the truth .

When I say {GOD bless as HE sees fit . I mean that GOD will Bless you all with the things that HE sees is GOOD for you , Not what you want , But what best for you all . BUT what is in my mind for us all that , IS the knowledge , understanding , & a closer walk with JESUS
 
Chris1975

Chris1975

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lightbearer said:
Good morning Chris! The answer to the question you asked is the Word.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

They shall be taught of GOD.
How?

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
(Deu 30:6 KJV)

The LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart.
How? Lets take a look.

If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment ( hearkening unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law,) which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word ( the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law) is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
(Deu 30:10-14 KJV)

This promise of, "The word ( the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law) is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it." to ancient Israel is stated in the present tense and repeated in in the New Testament.


But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (The word, the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law), down from above, Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (The word, the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law) again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
(Rom 10:6-8 KJV)

It has always been about Faith, through Christ in the heart. And Faith, Christ in the heart is a Gift from God.

If we have Faith through Christ in the heart we have the voice of God, the word to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in the Book of the Law their also.
Click to expand...
I like this answer best so far.

I think so more illumination around this topic may be worth consideration. Below is the opening of the book of Hebrews.

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
- It has always been God the Father speaking to Israel, and now to us.
-In various ways to the fathers, and by the prophets (prophet being he who speaks on behalf of the Lord).
-All through the OT it was Father God speaking.
-And we see Him speaking through the Son (Deuteronomy 18v15 foretold of this Prophet).

It is worth asking at this juncture - has God's message changed during this time? Pause and reflect here and answer for yourself.

And what was this message throughout the ages? It can most probably be narrowed down to the following broad categories:
1) God is before Creation
2) God created man for fellowship and the worship of God (Eden)
3) God tests those he loves (commandments - tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat...)
4) Man's fall
5) God's promise of a Saviour
6) God's election of those who will inherit eternal life through sonship
7) God giving the law as a tutor until such time that the Saviour comes.
8) The necessity of atonement (shedding of blood for the covering of sin, the transgressions of the human sin nature against the law).
9) The ONLY ONE who fulfilled the law, fulfilled the will of the Father, and became the perfect sacrifice (atonement) for God's children.
10) The revelation of this ONE, His identity being the ONLY one who was foretold, who fulfilled all prophesies concerning the Messiah, and whose identity is found in no other person than Jesus Christ.

I believe this, to me, is the BEING taught by the Father. Now I may have missed a category (or two or three) above, but I believe the general gist of being led into a solid foundation for our Faith in Jesus Christ.

Thinking about these 10 points above, can you say that you really believe in Christ, if you don't know your own need for a saviour (the fall of man, our inability to uphold the law according to God's perfect standard). Can you truly believe in Christ if you don't believe in the Fathers promises of eternal life? Of God testing His children (understanding that life will throw tests and trials your way)? Can we know Christ without understanding the necessity of the shedding of blood and His substitutionary sacrifice for you? Can we truly come to Christ without acknowledging and meditating on God's enormous majesty, knowing that He is Creator of it all and truly worthy of ALL of our worship.

Is perhaps this question raised in the OP significant from this perspective?

Let's look at the verse again. Perhaps with renewed perspective:

Verse 44-45 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
 
Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy

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bud62 said:
Abraham & Isaac & Jacob & Moses , I don't believe that they ever heard the Name of JESUS ether , But they sure will haft to be saved through & by HIS BLOOD . It's Not what we don't know , that will cause us to be lost . Thou it could part of it if we are not wanting to know the real truth about JESUS , AND run from the truth , Because of sins that we want to hold to . This will cause us to be lost . If we are holding on to sins that we know is sin. But it is what we know & don't do , Is what will cause us to be lost . We are saved through the NAME of JESUS ,And by HIM & HIS BLOOD .But I believe there will be people in Heaven that didn't know the NAME of JESUS . For GOD is going to judge us by what we KNOW , and NOT BY WHAT WE DON"T KNOW . If we are wanting the truth .

When I say {GOD bless as HE sees fit . I mean that GOD will Bless you all with the things that HE sees is GOOD for you , Not what you want , But what best for you all . BUT what is in my mind for us all that , IS the knowledge , understanding , & a closer walk with JESUS
Click to expand...
Hello again Bud62, while I agree with almost everything you just said, we still haven't figured out what Jesus meant when He told us that His death on the Cross would draw ~ALL~ men to Him.

Here's something for you to consider about that (if you have the time), something that I think is especially important to consider in this case, because of all the similar verses/passages in the Bible that come to mind, I cannot think of one among them where this idea may prove to be more applicable than it is in John 12:32.

The thought/understanding is this, that "all men" in v32 refers to all men w/o distinction (~not~ all men w/o exception). IOW, what the Lord is saying is that His death on the Cross will draw all men to Him in the sense that those drawn will not be Jews only, but non-Jews (Gentiles) will be drawn to Him too. The Jewish Nation ~and~ the Gentile Nations. People ~from~ every tribe and tongue and people and nation, not every individual in the world, w/o exception. That's what I believe the Lord actually meant in v32 by "all men" (and when you think about it, how could it be otherwise :unsure:).

Remember too that this idea comes up again and again the Bible (particularly in the OT/Gospels), because that's how the Jews viewed the world (~especially~ when salvation was in view), IOW, that the world was made up of us ... and ... them, Jews and Greeks, Jews and Gentles, saved and unsaved, and nothing much changed about that kind of thinking, even among the Apostles (who should have known better), until Peter's "kill and eat" dream in Acts 10, when he finally understood (y)(y)

God bless you!

~Deut
p.s. - I love/agree with most everything you said above, particularly what I put in bold. The only thing I might add to part of that is that God will judge and condemn the unsaved on the basis of ~WHAT~ they know and understand, and do .. e.g. Romans 2:12-16, but we Christians will be judged worthy of eternal life on the basis of ~WHO~ we know, what He did for us, and what we believe about Him, yes :)
 
bud62

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Deuteronomy said:
Hello again Bud62, while I agree with almost everything you just said, we still haven't figured out what Jesus meant when He told us that His death on the Cross would draw ~ALL~ men to Him.

Here's something for you to consider about that (if you have the time), something that I think is especially important to consider in this case, because of all the similar verses/passages in the Bible that come to mind, I cannot think of one among them where this idea may prove to be more applicable than it is in John 12:32.

The thought/understanding is this, that "all men" in v32 refers to all men w/o distinction (~not~ all men w/o exception). IOW, what the Lord is saying is that His death on the Cross will draw all men to Him in the sense that those drawn will not be Jews only, but non-Jews (Gentiles) will be drawn to Him too. The Jewish Nation ~and~ the Gentile Nations. People ~from~ every tribe and tongue and people and nation, not every individual in the world, w/o exception. That's what I believe the Lord actually meant in v32 by "all men" (and when you think about it, how could it be otherwise :unsure:).

Remember too that this idea comes up again and again the Bible (particularly in the OT/Gospels), because that's how the Jews viewed the world (~especially~ when salvation was in view), IOW, that the world was made up of us ... and ... them, Jews and Greeks, Jews and Gentles, saved and unsaved, and nothing much changed about that kind of thinking, even among the Apostles (who should have known better), until Peter's "kill and eat" dream in Acts 10, when he finally understood (y)(y)

God bless you!

~Deut
p.s. - I love/agree with most everything you said above, particularly what I put in bold. The only thing I might add to part of that is that God will judge and condemn the unsaved on the basis of ~WHAT~ they know and understand, and do .. e.g. Romans 2:12-16, but we Christians will be judged worthy of eternal life on the basis of ~WHO~ we know, what He did for us, and what we believe about Him, yes :)
Click to expand...
I believe HE's drawing all to today . BY the things that HE's letting happen & doing in their lives , To try to get them to look to HIM . But most people are to busy , or tide up in their lives , or love the darkness ,Rather then light , And want turn to HIM . Even them that has never heard of HIM ,
 
lightbearer

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Jun 17, 2017
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HBG. Pa. USA
#17
Chris1975 said:
I like this answer best so far.

I think so more illumination around this topic may be worth consideration. Below is the opening of the book of Hebrews.

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
- It has always been God the Father speaking to Israel, and now to us.
-In various ways to the fathers, and by the prophets (prophet being he who speaks on behalf of the Lord).
-All through the OT it was Father God speaking.
-And we see Him speaking through the Son (Deuteronomy 18v15 foretold of this Prophet).

It is worth asking at this juncture - has God's message changed during this time? Pause and reflect here and answer for yourself.

And what was this message throughout the ages? It can most probably be narrowed down to the following broad categories:
1) God is before Creation
2) God created man for fellowship and the worship of God (Eden)
3) God tests those he loves (commandments - tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat...)
4) Man's fall
5) God's promise of a Saviour
6) God's election of those who will inherit eternal life through sonship
7) God giving the law as a tutor until such time that the Saviour comes.
8) The necessity of atonement (shedding of blood for the covering of sin, the transgressions of the human sin nature against the law).
9) The ONLY ONE who fulfilled the law, fulfilled the will of the Father, and became the perfect sacrifice (atonement) for God's children.
10) The revelation of this ONE, His identity being the ONLY one who was foretold, who fulfilled all prophesies concerning the Messiah, and whose identity is found in no other person than Jesus Christ.

I believe this, to me, is the BEING taught by the Father. Now I may have missed a category (or two or three) above, but I believe the general gist of being led into a solid foundation for our Faith in Jesus Christ.

Thinking about these 10 points above, can you say that you really believe in Christ, if you don't know your own need for a saviour (the fall of man, our inability to uphold the law according to God's perfect standard). Can you truly believe in Christ if you don't believe in the Fathers promises of eternal life? Of God testing His children (understanding that life will throw tests and trials your way)? Can we know Christ without understanding the necessity of the shedding of blood and His substitutionary sacrifice for you? Can we truly come to Christ without acknowledging and meditating on God's enormous majesty, knowing that He is Creator of it all and truly worthy of ALL of our worship.

Is perhaps this question raised in the OP significant from this perspective?

Let's look at the verse again. Perhaps with renewed perspective:

Verse 44-45 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
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Thanks for well thought out reply Chris.
John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
John 6:48 I am that bread of life.
John 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
John 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

Hath in verse 47 is present tense , as is having.
What do you make of that?
 
bud62

bud62

Banned
#18
Jan 4, 2020
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washburn Tn
#18
bud62 said:
I believe HE's drawing all to today . BY the things that HE's letting happen & doing in their lives , To try to get them to look to HIM . But most people are to busy , or tide up in their lives , or love the darkness ,Rather then light , And want turn to HIM . Even them that has never heard of HIM ,
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lightbearer said:
Thanks for well thought out reply Chris.
John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
John 6:48 I am that bread of life.
John 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
John 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

Hath in verse 47 is present tense , as is having.
What do you make of that?
Click to expand...
JESUS said if I be left up I will draw all man to ME . Is this what you talking about ?
 
Chris1975

Chris1975

Senior Member
#19
Apr 27, 2017
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#19
lightbearer said:
Thanks for well thought out reply Chris.
John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
John 6:48 I am that bread of life.
John 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
John 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

Hath in verse 47 is present tense , as is having.
What do you make of that?
Click to expand...
Excellent question. Yes I believe that once a person believes in Jesus Christ they pass from death into life (in the present). They have been saved. But this is where the beauty lies. They are also BEING saved. And WILL BE saved.
For example, in the teaching above, let's look at where the Israelites were? They were in the wilderness. Upwards of 6 million people in the desert. I wouldn't want to be that one field mouse, or that isolated antelope in those days with 6 million people to be fed. There simply isn't enough scavenging food available in a desert, not is there suitability for sustenance vis-a-vis farming. So how did God provide for them? It was a daily bread from heaven (Manna). If an Israelite (who was saved from Egypt) stopped collecting their daily manna he too would die (starve). The point being that even though this Israelite was saved from Egypt, he was still BEING SAVED by the daily bread/sustenance. So too us today - those who believed in Jesus are saved, but we CONTINUE to believe and thus we are BEING SAVED (sanctification). Once we enter our Sabbath Rest, we will be SAVED (glorification).
And this daily bread from heaven (Christ Himself) is Everlasting Life. We are to continue in the faith and not draw back.
 
G

garee

Banned
#20
Mar 28, 2016
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#20
Chris1975 said:
Open question to the CC community.

We see this piece in John 6:

Verse 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

And then we see a few verses later

Verse 44-45 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

- What is it that these have heard and learned from the Father?
-As this is prerequisite to the Father drawing them, and prerequisite to the Father giving them to Christ.
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Different glories make up one

The context of the verse is informing us is as another instruction how to walk by faith or what does it mean to walk by faith? Like in Amos; "how can two walk together in a agreement" ? .

In that sense the unseen father raises us up just as it did with the Son of man. Jesus.

Jesus as the Son of man refused to stand in the holy unseen place of Good reserved for our invisible God.

Luke 18 adds to the teaching. Encouraging us to walk by faith the unseen .

The word Good is reserved for the unseen. It represents the unseen glory of the father, as Good

And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. Luke 18:18-19

The key to the Good is Mixing faith according to 2 Corinthians 4:18 in regard to what we do see or hear as the father draws us. The Son sets the example. Like for instance Jesus signified as the Moon reflecting the true glory the Sun represented by the father. .

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. Revelation 21:23

The lamb is the reflected glory.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
 
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