The atonement reaches back and covers to Adam and forward to the natural birth of the last person that God gave to his Son to atone for. All of those that God gave to his Son will be drawn (called) to him and will be given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the new birth in the same manner that Moses (Isaiah 63:11) and the rest of the old testament saints were. 2 Tim 2:15, Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. One of the things that the Holy Spirit kept hidden from me, when I was depending upon my entelect was how to divide the differences in the same words used in different scriptures, such as these words; World, life, all men, death, kingdom, salvation. Your statement that "God reaches out to men like us to preach the gospel of salvation to those who are dead (spiritually) in their sins". If we preach spiritual things to those that are spiritually dead they will think it to be foolishness because they cannot discern the things of the Spirit, until they have been born again and have been given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is why Jesus instructed his Apostles to go and preach to the lost sheep (God's born again children) of the house of Israel (Matt 10:6-7) telling them that the "kingdom of heaven" is at hand. This kingdom of heaven is not referencing eternal heaven, but is referencing Christ's church of which he is the king of and also the bride of. Also there is The nation of Israel and there is the Jacob Israel. God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel. The Jacob Israel is representative of God's elect people as evidenced in Romans 9:11. The reason that I made the statement that "there is a deliverance (salvation, but not eternal) in becoming knowledgeable of the gospel, is to show how the gospel can save (deliver) you here in time, because a man cannot discern the things of the Spirit (1 Cor 2:14) until he has already been born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is why God calls preachers, and that is to preach the good news of the gospel to God's born again children informing them that they are already saved eternally by the imputed righteousness of Christ and there is no need to think that their good works have saved them eternally, but that their obedience to God's commandments will lead them to enjoy that abundant life here in time (Matt 7:14) - and few there be that find it. There is an eternal life and a life which we can have, by our good works, here in time. The doctrine that Jesus taught when he was on earth was not accepted by the majority of the population and some said "It is a hard doctrine, who can understand it". It still seems to be not accepted in this day and time.
Is the doctrine of limited atonement biblical?
- Thread starter UnitedWithChrist
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According to what I understand in your post, you believe that a man first has to be regenerated before faith, but that is not scriptural and you cannot show me that from the Scriptures. From my understand, you are a calvinisn because that is exactly what they believe. I posted a video today did you get to see it and if not, I encourage you to see it, Jacob prasch comes with history and where the doctrine of calvinism originated from. The Charles Spurgeon calvinism was not that of John Calvin, John Calvin distorted the word of God.
Ist Timothy 2:4 makes it clear that God's desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. This implies all men not the way you believe and cross-reference it with Ezekiel 18:32 where God says, I take no pleasure in anyone's death, declares the Lord GOD. So repent and live! Not to mention, John 3:17 says, for God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him, and you can also read Titus 2:11, for the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.
With just the 4 scriptural verses that I provided it says "ALL" men, not just some men. How can you substantiate you view through the 4 scriptural verses that I just provided? You can't and it you can't then you have to acknowledge that your view is distorted, or anyone that believes that God saves some. Now I know that you stated that you believe that God died for all, but from the statement you made "all of those that God gave to his Son will be drawn (called) to him it appears more to sound like salvation is for some, unless God is talking from his foreknowledge.
My question to you, according to you when does the indwelling of the Holy Spirit takes place, after regeneration, Yes or No? If yes, what is regeneration to you?
According to what I understand in your post, you believe that a man first has to be regenerated before faith, but that is not scriptural and you cannot show me that from the Scriptures. From my understand, you are a calvinisn because that is exactly what they believe. I posted a video today did you get to see it and if not, I encourage you to see it, Jacob prasch comes with history and where the doctrine of calvinism originated from. The Charles Spurgeon calvinism was not that of John Calvin, John Calvin distorted the word of God.
Ist Timothy 2:4 makes it clear that God's desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. This implies all men not the way you believe and cross-reference it with Ezekiel 18:32 where God says, I take no pleasure in anyone's death, declares the Lord GOD. So repent and live! Not to mention, John 3:17 says, for God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him, and you can also read Titus 2:11, for the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.
With just the 4 scriptural verses that I provided it says "ALL" men, not just some men. How can you substantiate you view through the 4 scriptural verses that I just provided? You can't and it you can't then you have to acknowledge that your view is distorted, or anyone that believes that God saves some. Now I know that you stated that you believe that God died for all, but from the statement you made "all of those that God gave to his Son will be drawn (called) to him it appears more to sound like salvation is for some, unless God is talking from his foreknowledge.
My question to you, according to you when does the indwelling of the Holy Spirit takes place, after regeneration, Yes or No? If yes, what is regeneration to you?
My answer to your question is; Yes, in the fact that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is part of the new birth. Regeneration = (spiritual) rebirth (the state or act) i,e. (figuratively) spiritual renovation. , according to Strong's Greek concordance. 1 Cor 2 explains the difference in the natural man and the spiritual man. The natural man only has the faith of man and the spiritual man has spiritual faith which became available to him when God put the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within him, faith being a fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22). 1 Tim 2:4 The "all men" can be cross-referenced to the "all" and "any" in 2 Pet 3:9. To keep 2 Pet 3:9 in context we have to go back to 2 Pet 1:1 to see who Peter is giving this warning to, and it is to "them that have obtained like precious faith". Peter even includes himself in the "any" and "all" by using the word USWARD. The "any" and "all" is the same as the "all men" in 1 Tim 2:4. The whole difference of our misunderstandings lies within the understanding of the different meanings of the same words. Ezekiel 18:32, Dead has a two fold meaning in the scriptures, such as; The wording in Eph 2 says that the natural man is dead in sins. This does not mean that he is dead (not breathing) but that he is dead to understanding spiritual things. A man can be born again and still be dead to a fellowship with God when he is living in sin, which applies to Ezk 18:32. that has a footnote at the end of the verse referencing you to 2Pet 3:9. We, as born again christians, receive a deliverance (salvation) here in time from the consequences of our sin when we repent and God forgives us. This is why we should tell our disobedient brothers and sisters to repent so that they can regain fellowship with their God. The inspired scriptures were not written to the eternally unsaved, but to the eternally saved children of God as instructions on how God wants his children to live their lives while they sojourn here on earth. All that Jesus died for were perfected for ever for them that are sanctified (Heb 10:14). My question is; Is all mankind perfected forever? Yes, by my understanding of the scriptures, only those that were called by God, and drawn to him were perfected by Jesus's death on the cross. P.S. Can you tell me how to separate my comments into paragraphs?
i just want to lay out some facts we know from scripture, which are relevant to this topic. i'm not skipping context, lest i be accused - but rather than paste a giant text block, the context is John 6, which i trust anyone who sees this post can look up, particularly vv. 22-59 . . . the topic of this passage is that Christ is the true bread from heaven, which is the bread that truly gives life - which manna was a picture of; a shadow but not the reality, in a way of speaking. this life is salvation: the context is salvation, by grace through faith; the context is the person & work of Jesus.
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself
(John 12:32)
so, we know He is lifted up, and so He draws all people to Himself. He must be lifted up, John 3:14
from this we know only those who are drawn to Him by the Father can come to Him
we also know from this, He does not cast out any of them.
ok, so that's background, to what i wanted to comment about your reply.
i asked, what are we doing when we pray for others, what are we asking, why do we know there is a need for what we ask?
you said,
so, we ask that a person be drawn to Christ - good news! everyone is. He is the crux of all things, He, lifted up, draws all people to Himself. we ask that God bring a person to the cross. that is, we ask that the Father draw a person to the Son. that the Father give a person to the Son. that a person be given to Christ by the Father, therefore having life, therefore never losing it. therefore never again hungering or thirsting; that a person be given to believe in the Son.
that's why we pray for others, yes
you put it, that a person 'be strengthened by' the Father 'so that they can make the decision'
which is wonderful; it segues to another relevant portion of the passage i am talking about:
a person has to be drawn to Christ; that is something we had to receive from Christ. we can't choose Him unless He first gives this to us. a person has to be given to Christ; we can't choose Him unless He has given us to Him. we can't choose Him unless He first chooses us to grant this to us.
'strengthened to be able to choose Him'
yes. so who were we when we were drawn to Him? what were we like? we were His enemies; we hated Him ((Romans 5:10, Colossians 1:21 etc)). we were dead ((Ephesians 2:1, Colossians 2:13, etc)). we weren't looking for Him ((Romans 10:20)), we didn't know Him ((Galatians 4:8-9)), we were ungodly ((Romans 5:6)), we were evil ((Matthew 7:11)), foolish, disobedient slaves of wickedness ((Titus 3:3, Galatians 4:3, Colossians 3:7, etc)). we were in darkness and could not understand anything about Him ((Ephesians 5:8, John 1:5, 1 Corinthians 2:4)).
think about that. that's who we were the moment before we began to believe. we had the decision; we were free to make it. we were in no condition to make the right choice. we rejected Him, every time. we were poisoned, delirious, unreasonable; dead. He had to heal us to 'strengthen us to be able to make the decision' -- He had to give us life. He came to heal the sick; He came to give light to the blind; He came to give life to the dead.
that's why we pray for others. because they are dead, and we desire that God give them life. because they are blind, and we desire God open their eyes. because they are deaf and we desire God to open their ears. because they are insane and we wish that God would cause them to understand. because they refuse to come to Him, and have life; we hope that He will enable them to come to Him; that the Father will give them to the Son. because they do not know Him, and do not seek Him, so we want that Jesus reveal Himself to them, and seek them. we pray that they are His sheep, lost, and He find them, put them on His shoulders, and carry them home. we pray because they cannot choose Him: we pray that He choose to grant them to choose Him.
the answer you gave me, Sam, is the answer people despise. it is that we love because He first loved us. your answer is the answer i get persecuted for:
that we pray that God save others, because they cannot save themselves. that God choose others, because they do not choose Him. we pray that He anoint them, and change them into a different person, just like 1 Samuel ch. 10, as i was telling you the other day. we pray that He change a person's will, so that they no longer reject Him, but receive Him. we pray that He change their decision. we ask Him to save us; to make us anew; to conform us to His image - the moment we are seeking Him, looking to Him, coming to Him.. that moment we have already been radically changed. we have life!
you agree with me, Sam. & i don't think you believe it is God's desire that anyone be condemned.
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself
(John 12:32)
so, we know He is lifted up, and so He draws all people to Himself. He must be lifted up, John 3:14
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day
(John 6:44)
(John 6:44)
from this we know only those who are drawn to Him by the Father can come to Him
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
(John 6:37)
from this we know who it is that comes to Him; which is who it is that the Father draws to Him. He draws all to Himself, and only those who are drawn to Him by the Father can come to Him. those the Father draw are those the Father gives Him: all those.(John 6:37)
we also know from this, He does not cast out any of them.
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
(John 6:39)
from this we know that none of those who are given to Him are lost; that also this is the will of the Father.(John 6:39)
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
(John 6:40)
from this we have the same congruency between believing and coming to Him repeated, and salvation with coming to Him. and we know that this is the will of the Father.(John 6:40)
- the Son is lifted up
- the Son draws all to Himself
- the Father gives some to the Son, drawing them to Him
- all of those given come to Him and have eternal life
- none of those given to the Son by the Father are cast out or lost
- this is the will of God
ok, so that's background, to what i wanted to comment about your reply.
i asked, what are we doing when we pray for others, what are we asking, why do we know there is a need for what we ask?
you said,
"I pray that God ministers to friends of mine to bring them to the cross to see the love of God and to be strengthened by God's love for them so that they can make the decision to accept the atonement"
so, we ask that a person be drawn to Christ - good news! everyone is. He is the crux of all things, He, lifted up, draws all people to Himself. we ask that God bring a person to the cross. that is, we ask that the Father draw a person to the Son. that the Father give a person to the Son. that a person be given to Christ by the Father, therefore having life, therefore never losing it. therefore never again hungering or thirsting; that a person be given to believe in the Son.
that's why we pray for others, yes
you put it, that a person 'be strengthened by' the Father 'so that they can make the decision'
which is wonderful; it segues to another relevant portion of the passage i am talking about:
"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
(John 6:63-65)
from this we know, no one can come to the Son unless the Father has granted it to them. here is the congruency again between believing and coming to Him, and here's another 'giving' - another facet of the free gift. it is the same, that the Father gives a person to the Son, as Father gives to that person to be able to receive the Son. no one can come unless it is granted; and can they believe? He says no. the person receives this from the Father: a gift. this is the 'strengthening' as you called it; as you said, that a person be enabled to choose Christ. (John 6:63-65)
a person has to be drawn to Christ; that is something we had to receive from Christ. we can't choose Him unless He first gives this to us. a person has to be given to Christ; we can't choose Him unless He has given us to Him. we can't choose Him unless He first chooses us to grant this to us.
'strengthened to be able to choose Him'
yes. so who were we when we were drawn to Him? what were we like? we were His enemies; we hated Him ((Romans 5:10, Colossians 1:21 etc)). we were dead ((Ephesians 2:1, Colossians 2:13, etc)). we weren't looking for Him ((Romans 10:20)), we didn't know Him ((Galatians 4:8-9)), we were ungodly ((Romans 5:6)), we were evil ((Matthew 7:11)), foolish, disobedient slaves of wickedness ((Titus 3:3, Galatians 4:3, Colossians 3:7, etc)). we were in darkness and could not understand anything about Him ((Ephesians 5:8, John 1:5, 1 Corinthians 2:4)).
think about that. that's who we were the moment before we began to believe. we had the decision; we were free to make it. we were in no condition to make the right choice. we rejected Him, every time. we were poisoned, delirious, unreasonable; dead. He had to heal us to 'strengthen us to be able to make the decision' -- He had to give us life. He came to heal the sick; He came to give light to the blind; He came to give life to the dead.
that's why we pray for others. because they are dead, and we desire that God give them life. because they are blind, and we desire God open their eyes. because they are deaf and we desire God to open their ears. because they are insane and we wish that God would cause them to understand. because they refuse to come to Him, and have life; we hope that He will enable them to come to Him; that the Father will give them to the Son. because they do not know Him, and do not seek Him, so we want that Jesus reveal Himself to them, and seek them. we pray that they are His sheep, lost, and He find them, put them on His shoulders, and carry them home. we pray because they cannot choose Him: we pray that He choose to grant them to choose Him.
the answer you gave me, Sam, is the answer people despise. it is that we love because He first loved us. your answer is the answer i get persecuted for:
that we pray that God save others, because they cannot save themselves. that God choose others, because they do not choose Him. we pray that He anoint them, and change them into a different person, just like 1 Samuel ch. 10, as i was telling you the other day. we pray that He change a person's will, so that they no longer reject Him, but receive Him. we pray that He change their decision. we ask Him to save us; to make us anew; to conform us to His image - the moment we are seeking Him, looking to Him, coming to Him.. that moment we have already been radically changed. we have life!
you agree with me, Sam. & i don't think you believe it is God's desire that anyone be condemned.
View attachment 208139
i forgive you
i just didn't want it to keep going on; it stinks to have what you say completely misrepresented.
i forgive you
i just didn't want it to keep going on; it stinks to have what you say completely misrepresented.
I am not asking you for forgiveness, I am referring to unitedwithchrist, he fabricated lies and owes me an apology for creating such lies about me. As I told Flint, he won't apologize because from his writings he appears to be a person with a narcissistic disorder behavior, one who cannot and would not admit to a wrong. Mostly likely he read my post and it has been a full day and he still has not apologize and as I stated, he cannot because he would not admit to the lies that he fabricated in his own mind and then convinced himself that the lies he created are true statement that were said when they were lies that he fabricated. By him admitting to it people would see who he is, but people can look at my post to see if I ever made such a statement that he fabricated.
UnitedWithChrist doesn't seem to come on the forums everyday SUNDOWNSAM, i wouldnt be judging him before he has even REPLIED!
I understand though where your coming from, so just wait, im sure he will respond and admit to his lie, i would bet its a misunderstanding on his part.
Have a good conscience towards others, until proven
I understand though where your coming from, so just wait, im sure he will respond and admit to his lie, i would bet its a misunderstanding on his part.
Have a good conscience towards others, until proven
Whether you copy and paste, it was beautifully written and your brief comments was rightly stated. What was enlightening from this article is something I stated but it was worded better... "we were in no condition to make the right choice". In other words, though we make the decision it is God that quickens us so that we can make that decision. If a person makes that decision God gave him to Yeshua.
Ezekiel 18:32 God says, for I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye, which is referring to repent. God wants all men to live, but unfortunately it will not happen because many will reject them, Israel reject God and all nations are no different.
God is sovereign any his mercy and love for mankind demonstrated that on the cross, and thank God that the Spirit of God can quicken us to see a merciful and loving God which strengthens us to make right decision and if he does not do that, we won't because we are in no condition to make the right choice because our sin separates us from God, which is why the Spirit of God has to do the quickening. People are allowing God's sovereign to blind them for fairly weighing and not realizing that the Spirit of God is the one that opens our eyes to see this truth, so like one day he will remove the scales in the eyes of his chosen people (Israel).
I enjoyed the entire reading and recommend others to read it.
Ezekiel 18:32 God says, for I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye, which is referring to repent. God wants all men to live, but unfortunately it will not happen because many will reject them, Israel reject God and all nations are no different.
God is sovereign any his mercy and love for mankind demonstrated that on the cross, and thank God that the Spirit of God can quicken us to see a merciful and loving God which strengthens us to make right decision and if he does not do that, we won't because we are in no condition to make the right choice because our sin separates us from God, which is why the Spirit of God has to do the quickening. People are allowing God's sovereign to blind them for fairly weighing and not realizing that the Spirit of God is the one that opens our eyes to see this truth, so like one day he will remove the scales in the eyes of his chosen people (Israel).
I enjoyed the entire reading and recommend others to read it.
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UnitedWithChrist doesn't seem to come on the forums everyday SUNDOWNSAM, i wouldnt be judging him before he has even REPLIED!
I understand though where your coming from, so just wait, im sure he will respond and admit to his lie, i would bet its a misunderstanding on his part.
Have a good conscience towards others, until proven
I understand though where your coming from, so just wait, im sure he will respond and admit to his lie, i would bet its a misunderstanding on his part.
Have a good conscience towards others, until proven
This website notifies you when they get a message, not to mention, it also informs that their post was commented on, right? Yesterday, I responded to one of his post, I am sure he was notified about it.
The only way he will respond is if you write to him and say apologize to see what he says, I am just throwing this in the air, but I am not saying you did or will do that. As I told you, he will say that it was a misunderstanding, but the fact is that it was an absolute statement that he made, so there cannot be an excuse. I am not expecting him to apology because he will not admit to his lies knowing that his lies will discredit any future post of his. It is not about me wanting an apology, he needs to admit that the lie he fabricated in his own mind, convincing himself as if it was a true statement made was a false statement that he deliberately fabricated, ultimately making him the liar.
UnitedWithChrist doesn't seem to come on the forums everyday SUNDOWNSAM, i wouldnt be judging him before he has even REPLIED!
I understand though where your coming from, so just wait, im sure he will respond and admit to his lie, i would bet its a misunderstanding on his part.
Have a good conscience towards others, until proven
I understand though where your coming from, so just wait, im sure he will respond and admit to his lie, i would bet its a misunderstanding on his part.
Have a good conscience towards others, until proven
This website notifies you when they get a message, not to mention, it also informs that their post was commented on, right? Yesterday, I responded to one of his post, I am sure he was notified about it.
The only way he will respond is if you write to him and say apologize to see what he says, I am just throwing this in the air, but I am not saying you did or will do that. As I told you, he will say that it was a misunderstanding, but the fact is that it was an absolute statement that he made, so there cannot be an excuse. I am not expecting him to apology because he will not admit to his lies knowing that his lies will discredit any future post of his. It is not about me wanting an apology, he needs to admit that the lie he fabricated in his own mind, convincing himself as if it was a true statement made was a false statement that he deliberately fabricated, ultimately making him the liar.
About good conscious toward others, I have not animosity towards him, but I have no problem calling it out, regardless if one is highly educated or has a high position in the church; if one falsely accuses another in the public, one needs to call him out in the public because no one should publicly assassinate one's character in public.
i wrote it all; i only copy-pasted verses from John, using NKJV version. i'm glad you appreciated what i wanted to point out
amen, thank God that He intervenes in us to save - or else we would all remain lost!
amen, thank God that He intervenes in us to save - or else we would all remain lost!
Unless the LORD builds the house, they labor in vain who build it!
Unless the LORD guards the city, the watchman stays awake in vain!
(Psalm 127:1)
Unless the LORD guards the city, the watchman stays awake in vain!
(Psalm 127:1)
I can see that you carefully wrote this, it was distinctively clear, free from clouds. I really enjoyed it and I would add to a high degree. I will copy and paste and will read it again. When when take time in writing something, one learns to be extremely careful in their writings.
Send me an email gottoreadit gmail.com, you know the between.
Send me an email gottoreadit gmail.com, you know the between.
I would think if God put his words on the lips of Paul he would hope we would obey the commandments that it takes to fullfill his desire. Do this in remembrance of me. Not in remembrance of the feet of the apostle that he sends with his commandments. No different than the ceremonial laws that have been fulfilled at his coming.
Its not simply a fad for the time then present. Neither a way to expose false prophets which some to attribute to Paul .
The "commandment". . . Men do not cover your head of hair. Wife's do cover your hair . Again like all ceremonial laws as shadows are used as a representative glory that point ahead. (beforehand )
Just as Christ fulfilled the old testemtment ceremonial laws as a representative glory . He will fulfil the new testament law.
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1 Peter1:911
Its not simply a fad for the time then present. Neither a way to expose false prophets which some to attribute to Paul .
The "commandment". . . Men do not cover your head of hair. Wife's do cover your hair . Again like all ceremonial laws as shadows are used as a representative glory that point ahead. (beforehand )
Just as Christ fulfilled the old testemtment ceremonial laws as a representative glory . He will fulfil the new testament law.
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1 Peter1:911
The question you have failed to ask is why the Father gives some to the Son, and not others.
The standard Calvinist response is because God elects some for salvation. But that would make the drawing of all men to Christ a sham. So that is NOT the explanation. However if we see that those who believe receive the gift of the Spirit, and become children of God, as well as a part of the Bride of Christ, then it all becomes clear.
Just as Abraham gave Isaac the beautiful Rebekah as his bride, God the Father gives His Bridegroom Son the Church as His Bride. And the Church consists of those who have been saved by grace through faith.
The standard Calvinist response is because God elects some for salvation. But that would make the drawing of all men to Christ a sham. So that is NOT the explanation. However if we see that those who believe receive the gift of the Spirit, and become children of God, as well as a part of the Bride of Christ, then it all becomes clear.
Just as Abraham gave Isaac the beautiful Rebekah as his bride, God the Father gives His Bridegroom Son the Church as His Bride. And the Church consists of those who have been saved by grace through faith.