Are you a Trinitarian, and if so, can you defend the doctrine?

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Are you a Trinitarian, and can you defend the doctrine?

  • Yes, I am a Trinitarian, and I can defend the doctrine.

    Votes: 37 63.8%
  • Yes, I am a Trinitarian, but I cannot defend the doctrine.

    Votes: 2 3.4%
  • No, I deny the doctrine of the Trinity.

    Votes: 16 27.6%
  • I don't know if the Trinity is true or false.

    Votes: 3 5.2%

  • Total voters
    58

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
9,265
5,624
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#61
I agree, i'm a human and so are you. So i will always understand things as a human and not a god and i expect also that God Himself will explain this things knowing that i'm a human. What i will never do is try to explain impossibilities; three persons in one being is not possible especially if we are certain that Jesus is one person and one being by Himself.

It is also said that all deity dwells in Him (Jesus); This means the Father and the Holy spirit dwell in Him but even as they dwell in Him, we still know Jesus as one person and one being.
Consider this: Can you wash your garment in blood to make it white? Impossible right? You'll never be able to do that if you try for a thousand years. Washing clothes in blood will only make them red or brown. In the physical world

Yet Revelation 7:14 tells us that a great multitude has washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb.
Is this impossible? Or is it a spiritual matter? I think you know that these are spiritual things. The creator has revealed his nature to us as best he can to fallen creatures.

Think of a 3-dimensional being trying to express himself to one-dimensional creatures. 3 dimensions would seem impossible but they aren't.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#62
In John's gospel, we see destruction of the trinity notion too:

John 14: 16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocatef to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19In a little while, the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you also will live.

John 16: 7But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocatea will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.


The understanding.
1. The advocate (Holy spirit) was already there with the disciples because Jesus says they know Him and He abides with them
2. Unless Jesus goes, the advocate who was already there with them, will not come in them
3. Jesus does leave them as orphans, He returns to them shortly

Why is it difficult to note that Jesus is claiming to be the advocate here; He is there with them and they know Him but He must go and come back in a different form to indwell them.
Why is Jesus talking like this if indeed Him and the holy spirit are two distinct persons?
The trinity persons each have separate roles. The Father knew some things the Son did not know. The Holy Spirit also had purposes unique to him, as did the Son.
 

Aerials1978

Well-known member
Dec 10, 2019
1,707
986
113
#63
Through out scripture we read the nature of God being triune. I don’t think we mere infinite beings can even begin to understand the relationship of the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit. It’s like asking bacteria to evaluate us and our nature and that’s still not even close enough.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#64
The trinity persons each have separate roles. The Father knew some things the Son did not know. The Holy Spirit also had purposes unique to him, as did the Son.
You can not support your statement and the reason you can not answer my simple question is because you are dealing with an impossibility.
Jesus said ALL that the Father has belongs to Him (Jesus), this includes knowledge.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#65
Consider this: Can you wash your garment in blood to make it white? Impossible right? You'll never be able to do that if you try for a thousand years. Washing clothes in blood will only make them red or brown. In the physical world

Yet Revelation 7:14 tells us that a great multitude has washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb.
Is this impossible? Or is it a spiritual matter? I think you know that these are spiritual things. The creator has revealed his nature to us as best he can to fallen creatures.

Think of a 3-dimensional being trying to express himself to one-dimensional creatures. 3 dimensions would seem impossible but they aren't.
I think what is being said in Revelation is figurative and not literal, nobody is meant to wash their robes and whiten them in blood even spiritual but the washing here is indicative that one is made sinless.
 

Aerials1978

Well-known member
Dec 10, 2019
1,707
986
113
#66
You can not support your statement and the reason you can not answer my simple question is because you are dealing with an impossibility.
Jesus said ALL that the Father has belongs to Him (Jesus), this includes knowledge.
I really don’t know where some get their theology. When I read that post I was left scratching my head.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
9,265
5,624
113
#67
I think what is being said in Revelation is figurative and not literal, nobody is meant to wash their robes and whiten them in blood even spiritual but the washing here is indicative that one is made sinless.
If you haven't been washed in the blood of The Lamb then how are you saved?
I believe that you & I are literally saved and cleansed by the perfect blood of Jesus. Not figuratively. It's a real spiritual whiteness, no one can see it with their human eyes but in the spirit realm it certainly shows.

Isaiah 1:18
"Come now, and let us reason together, says the Lord.
Though your sins are like scarlet, they will be as white as snow.
Though they are as red as crimson, they will be like wool"

Anyway, I have moved away from the subject of the thread & I apologise to the OP. I was just trying to illustrate one spiritual principle with another. I'm afraid you can't jettison The Trinity Doctrine from the faith and still call it Christianity. The triune nature of our God is a core pillar. Man couldn't make this up!
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#68
You can not support your statement and the reason you can not answer my simple question is because you are dealing with an impossibility.
Jesus said ALL that the Father has belongs to Him (Jesus), this includes knowledge.
What is your question? Is it possible you don't understand?
 
Oct 25, 2018
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#69
The Father is with respect to the Son and the son is only a son with respect to the Father. They can not both co-exist eternally.
What i mean is; the Father is only a father to someone He begets and the son is only a son when He is begotten. Before the son is begotten the title Father is not applicable and so is the son.
Begotten in regards to the Christ is not the same as saying “I have begotten a son” as in procreation. Begotten means “unique”, “one and only”. The Son is the “unique”, one and only” Son of the Father, and was not created. If the Son of God is not co-eternal with the Father(same with the Holy Spirit), then they both are created beings.

Do you feel safe to call them both created beings?


https://www.gotquestions.org/only-begotten-son.html

This is from Bill Mounce’s reverse interlinear...


μονογενής (monogenēs)
Strong: G3439

GK: G3666

only-begotten, only-born, Lk. 7:12; 8:42; 9:38; Heb. 11:17; only-begotten in respect of peculiar generation, unique, Jn. 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1 Jn. 4:9



So, the Christ and the Holy Spirit are both God, are both co-equal, co-eternal with the Father.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,142
612
113
70
Alabama
#70
Because it doesn't make sense to me. The moment you have three persons as divine, you'll have three Gods.
That logic does not follow. If you have a musical chord consisting of a triad of notes - c, e, and g, does this mean this represents three chords?
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#71
That logic does not follow. If you have a musical chord consisting of a triad of notes - c, e, and g, does this mean this represents three chords?
I don't understand this example, if you would clarify please.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#72
Begotten in regards to the Christ is not the same as saying “I have begotten a son” as in procreation. Begotten means “unique”, “one and only”. The Son is the “unique”, one and only” Son of the Father, and was not created. If the Son of God is not co-eternal with the Father(same with the Holy Spirit), then they both are created beings.

Do you feel safe to call them both created beings?


https://www.gotquestions.org/only-begotten-son.html

This is from Bill Mounce’s reverse interlinear...


μονογενής (monogenēs)
Strong: G3439

GK: G3666

only-begotten, only-born, Lk. 7:12; 8:42; 9:38; Heb. 11:17; only-begotten in respect of peculiar generation, unique, Jn. 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1 Jn. 4:9



So, the Christ and the Holy Spirit are both God, are both co-equal, co-eternal with the Father.
Is the Father also a 'unique one' and only Father to the son? According to your definition of begotten, why isn't the Father begotten?
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#74
Begotten in regards to the Christ is not the same as saying “I have begotten a son” as in procreation. Begotten means “unique”, “one and only”. The Son is the “unique”, one and only” Son of the Father, and was not created. If the Son of God is not co-eternal with the Father(same with the Holy Spirit), then they both are created beings.

Do you feel safe to call them both created beings?


https://www.gotquestions.org/only-begotten-son.html

This is from Bill Mounce’s reverse interlinear...


μονογενής (monogenēs)
Strong: G3439

GK: G3666

only-begotten, only-born, Lk. 7:12; 8:42; 9:38; Heb. 11:17; only-begotten in respect of peculiar generation, unique, Jn. 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1 Jn. 4:9



So, the Christ and the Holy Spirit are both God, are both co-equal, co-eternal with the Father.
Let's see some examples:

Psalm 2:7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.

Heb 5:5 So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”;

Did the Father mean this, "today you have become unique.."
 

Aerials1978

Well-known member
Dec 10, 2019
1,707
986
113
#75
Q. Is Jesus one person, one being and one God by Himself?
I think it’s beyond our ability to understand God’s overall being and nature. Scripture does proclaim that God is triune in three distinct persons.

It would be incorrect to assume Jesus is one God by himself and acts separately from the Father. Again, we no concept of who God is other than what He has revealed to us.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#76
I think it’s beyond our ability to understand God’s overall being and nature. Scripture does proclaim that God is triune in three distinct persons.

It would be incorrect to assume Jesus is one God by himself and acts separately from the Father. Again, we no concept of who God is other than what He has revealed to us.
The scriptures says what it says but it is our understanding that proclaims the diverse nature of God.
 

Alertandawake

Senior Member
Aug 20, 2017
436
94
28
#77
The ones who feel confident that can defend the trinity, if you are put into a position where someone quotes to you verses like John 17:3, how are you able to defend the trinity? When read in context what do people understand of that particular verse?
 

bojack

Well-known member
Dec 16, 2019
2,309
1,006
113
#78
I rarely use the word ''trinity'' .. I prefer same one God , Father God , God the Son named Jesus , Holy Ghost the Spirit of God sent as our comforter ..
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
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#79
Q. Is Jesus one person, one being and one God by Himself?
Jesus Christ is the name of the Father, Son, And Holy Spirit who is one being with three persons. He took on human flesh and soul through the virgin Mary. But when he spoke, he spoke through the second person of the trinity, the eternal Son.
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
#80
Let's see some examples:

Psalm 2:7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.

Heb 5:5 So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”;

Did the Father mean this, "today you have become unique.."
From Adam Clarke’s commentary of Psalm 2:7...


This day have I begotten thee - By thy resurrection thou art declared to be the Son of God, εν δυναμει, by miraculous power, being raised from the dead. Thus by thy wondrous and supernatural nativity, most extraordinary death, and miraculous resurrection, thou art declared to be the Son of God. And as in that Son dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, all the sufferings and the death of that human nature were stamped with an infinitely meritorious efficacy. We have St. Paul's authority for applying to the resurrection of our Lord these words, "Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee;" - see Acts 13:33; see also Hebrews 5:6; - and the man must indeed be a bold interpreter of the Scriptures who would give a different gloss to that of the apostle. It is well known that the words, "Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee," have been produced by many as a proof of the eternal generation of the Son of God. On the subject itself I have already given my opinion in my note on Luke 1:35, from which I recede not one hair's breadth. Still however it is necessary to spend a few moments on the clause before us. The word היום haiyom, Today, Is in no part of the sacred writings used to express eternity, or any thing in reference to it; nor can it have any such signification. To-day is an absolute designation of the present, and equally excludes time past and time future; and never can, by any figure, or allowable latitude of construction, be applied to express eternity. But why then does the Divine Spirit use the word begotten in reference to the declaration of the inauguration of the Messiah to his kingdom, and his being seated at the right hand of God? Plainly to show both to Jews and Gentiles that this Man of sorrows, this Outcast from society, this Person who was prosecuted as a blasphemer of God, and crucified as an enemy to the public peace and a traitor to the government, is no less than that eternal Word, who was in the beginning with God, who was God, and in whom dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily: that this rejected Person was he for whom in the fullness of time a body was prepared, begotten by the exclusive power of the Most High in the womb of an unspotted virgin, which body he gave unto death as a sin-offering for the redemption of the world; and having raised it from death, declared it to be that miraculously-begotten Son of God, and now gave farther proof of this by raising the God-man to his right hand.


The word ילדתי yalidti, "I have begotten," is here taken in the sense of manifesting, exhibiting, or declaring; and to this sense of it St. Paul ( Romans 1:3, Romans 1:4) evidently alludes when speaking of "Jesus Christ, who was made of the seed of David according to the flesh, του ὁρισθεντος Υἱου Θεου εν δυναμει, κατα Πνευμα αγιωσυνης, εξ αναστασεως νεκρων ; and declared (exhibited or determined) to be the Son of God with power, according to the Spirit of holiness." This very rejected Person, I this day, by raising him from the dead, and placing him at my right hand, giving to him all power in heaven and earth, declare to be my Son, the beloved one in whom I am well pleased. Therefore hear him, believe on him, and obey him; for there is no redemption but through his blood; no salvation but in his name; no resurrection unto eternal life but through his resurrection, ascension, and powerful intercession at my right hand. Thou art my Son; this day have I declared and manifested thee to be such. It was absolutely necessary to the salvation of men, and the credibility of the Gospel, that the supernatural origin of the humanity of Jesus Christ should be manifested and demonstrated. Hence we find the inspired writers taking pains to show that he was born of a woman, and of that woman by the sovereign power of the everlasting God. This vindicated the character of the blessed virgin, showed the human nature of Christ to be immaculate, and that, even in respect to this nature, he was every way qualified to be a proper atoning sacrifice and Mediator between God and man. I need not tell the learned reader that the Hebrew verb ילד yalad, to beget, is frequently used in reference to inanimate things, to signify their production, or the exhibition of the things produced. In Genesis 2:4; : These are the generations, תולדות toledoth, of the heavens and the earth; this is the order in which God produced and exhibited them. See Hebrews and Eng. Concord., Venema, etc.